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i mean you're asking the right questions

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for anybody that really knows their math

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and science

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and it must be hard knows about you

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you're asking exactly the right

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questions

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how's it going man great how about you

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it's going well how's the weather it's

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been like an irvine oh it's well

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it's it's probably the best weather you

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could have in the world i mean it's

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almost like we have a thermostatist

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that's

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it's just gorgeous here year round so i

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have no complaints

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it's warm with all the

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quarantine and lockdowns are you okay is

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it all right in your mental health

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do you prefer it i'm okay i it's um

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for me it's great in the sense that i'm

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i'm enjoying um

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less distraction and i'm able to focus

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on studying some mathematics and physics

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that i'm interested in studying so

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it's it's good it's of course very very

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sad to see the millions infected and

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hundreds of thousands 140 000 at this

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point that are

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dead so yeah that's that's that's

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horrific and

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you know the threat of the pandemic

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expanding and so forth is you know not

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much fun

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um so and i got family and relatives and

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so forth that i'm concerned about so

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yeah

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about it i like it because

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it removes any distractions and i too am

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studying math and physics on the side

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and

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salutary for me

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but it's obviously not for everyone has

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it changed your views at all

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has covered giving you given you any

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insight or any different ideas with

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regards to your theories which we'll get

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into

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uh it just confirms what we learned from

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evolutionary psychology about that

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about human nature and in groups and out

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groups and

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um the one the reasons we evolved logic

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and reason it wasn't in pursuit of truth

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but to

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to support ideas that we already believe

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so so we just see this being played out

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in

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forth that are

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that are going on and and you know the

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yeah we see human nature being played

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out in a big way and we and we see the

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results in terms of

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uh you know a big failure in our country

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right now the the

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rates of infection are going up the

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deaths are we're number one in the world

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in terms of the number of deaths and

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infections and so forth

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maybe not per capita but um but but

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still

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for the world's richest country with

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the the wonderful scientific

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establishment that we have you would

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think that there would be

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just no problem in us getting together

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organizing and defeating this thing

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but but there there's the whole aspect

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of human evolutionary psychology

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and um that that's playing playing

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itself out uh

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large and so so and i study evolutionary

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psychology and what's going on

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does does make sense it's tragic for us

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as a as a population but it makes sense

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in terms of human nature

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do you meditate yes daily

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what kind of meditation mindfulness or

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transcendental or

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silence nothing else

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pure silence no poses i do whatever

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feels comfortable but it's i spend

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probably at least three hours a day

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in pure silence that's it not looking at

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a screen or reading

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nothing not walking not walking

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just silence sitting lying the pose

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doesn't matter to me

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but it's just pure silence and um

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being just being aware of whatever i

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feel

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in the moment in being aware of thoughts

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as they come up and just

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if they come up then i'll let them go

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and go back to silence

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it's very very simple what's what i find

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tricky about meditation this is why i

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don't do it

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is that as soon as i start to not that

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the thoughts intrude but

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that great productive thoughts come up

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and then i have to write them down

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because i find that when i don't it's

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rare that i get them again

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so do you sit with a pen and paper if

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you have a particularly brilliant

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thought do you just allow that to

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escape i let it go it's over the years

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it's only maybe one or two times that

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i've actually written something down

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it's i i just don't i just let it come

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and i let it go

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i have a fairly good memory for the

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stuff that comes up if i want to later

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so so

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maybe maybe if i was really concerned

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that i would forget something that i

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really wanted i might be doing that but

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i'm not too concerned about it i can

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remember stuff later

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but i just you know it's it's a matter

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what i find it's the meditation process

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for me

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is what i can imagine it's like for a

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it turns out when the caterpillar is

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inside the chrysalis the immune cells

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of the caterpillar attack

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and try to kill that in fact they do

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kill the cells

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that are responsible for the

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transformation into a butterfly

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they attack and kill attack and kill

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until they're overwhelmed

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and and then all most of the structure

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of the caterpillar liquefies

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and then it's reformed into the

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butterfly from the point of view of the

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caterpillar

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that that can't be fun and the immune

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system indicates

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that it's it's not welcomed by the

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caterpillar at all it's it's fought

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to the death by the immune system until

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the immune system's overwhelmed

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but from the point of view of the

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butterfly it's it's

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a brand new creation so it depends on

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whether you take the

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the point of view of the caterpillar or

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the butterfly most of the time i've been

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the caterpillar

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um but i'm starting a little bit to

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welcome the destruction of everything i

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know

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the destruction of deeply held beliefs

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the destruction of

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my fears and so forth defense mechanisms

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letting all that stuff slowly be

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destroyed

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just in pure silence and then watching

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whatever new might might come up i mean

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it's hard

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to imagine that the caterpillar has any

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idea what it's going to be turned into

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it's just fighting it to the death until

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he can't fight anymore

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and then it liquefies so from the

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caterpillar's point of view it's just

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all loss and death and destruction

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but there's a rebirth and that's the way

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i feel about

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meditation that it's i'm allowing a

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transformation

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to occur of which i'm arbitrarily

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ignorant about

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its true nature and i can only tell you

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after i've taken the next step what it

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was like

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so are you aware of any studies that

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have been done

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as to the memory of a caterpillar when

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it becomes into its butterfly phase that

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it has and that it retains

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certain memories that's right i i have

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i mean i'm not an expert on it but i do

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recall um stories about that that if you

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give some kind of

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like aversive training to the

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caterpillar it might be there

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um the reactions might be there on the

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butterfly that kind of thing

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i was watching a neuroscientist say that

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some memories might be non-vocal or not

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localized into the neuronal formation in

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the brain

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and the reason why he thinks so is

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controversial and it's extremely

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rudimentary in his research right now is

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because of the arctic squirrel

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the arctic squirrel when it goes into

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hibernation and i believe most creatures

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experience this their brain degenerates

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to such a degree that

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it's it's not clear that memory should

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certain memories

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should survive yet they do with the

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arctic squirrel it's interesting

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do you eat a certain kind of breakfast

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or follow a diet

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uh i i try to um have a

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low acid diet so i have lots of oatmeal

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i have oatmeal you know for breakfast

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and

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try to do low acid low fat so i'll have

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um an omelet with mostly egg whites

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maybe one egg yolk

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um and some fresh fruit

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my wife is a vegetarian i'm not but um

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so she

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is she makes up vegetables all the time

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so eat her vegetables and then i'll cook

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some fish

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um chicken i don't do beef that often

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but i

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focus on fish and chicken

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but you know i'll have a little bit of

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red meat so i try to eat

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i eat three times a day i don't snack at

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all

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and i after dinner i don't eat any

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snacks so i

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don't eat usually from 6 30 in the

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evening

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until at least 7 30 the next day i i

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never eat

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a bite and that's just been my habit for

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for decades

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i don't need it all for like 12 hours 13

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hours

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see i intermittent fast but i do so

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because i'm filled with

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with avarice and i i just want to eat

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whatever i see so i

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fast for like when i spoke to eric

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weinstein i think at that point during

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the interview i had not eaten for 65

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hours or so not plenty but but i do that

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before i conduct my

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podcasts or interviews generally do you

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have any

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rituals that or habits that you do

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before you

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meditation

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no i i i'm pretty comfortable talking i

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i you know

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i was a professor at the university of

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california for 37 years and had to give

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lectures all the time

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to big audiences and so for me it

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talking is is is not an issue at all so

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i mean i was working out just until a

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couple minutes before we got on

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onto this podcast i had had an hour

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window so i i

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i got a little um you know bench and you

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know dumbbells that

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that i use and i i weight train three

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times a week and do aerobics

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three or four times the other three or

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four days of the week so i try to have a

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regular thing so i was doing that just

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before the podcast

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so so yeah no i i don't

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you usually have to i mean i i usually

284
00:09:55,829 --> 00:09:52,160
just

285
00:09:57,190 --> 00:09:55,839
go and and talk and enjoy it

286
00:09:59,430 --> 00:09:57,200
i was looking at your background and it

287
00:10:00,230 --> 00:09:59,440
said you studied initially computational

288
00:10:05,509 --> 00:10:00,240
psychology

289
00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:05,519
it was

290
00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:07,360
computational psychology was the name of

291
00:10:12,389 --> 00:10:08,640
my my phd

292
00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:12,399
at mit and there i was in the artificial

293
00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:14,000
intelligence laboratory

294
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:17,040
at mit and in what's now the brain and

295
00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:18,880
cognitive sciences department

296
00:10:22,949 --> 00:10:20,480
and so what i was doing was a

297
00:10:25,829 --> 00:10:22,959
combination of studying

298
00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:25,839
just artificial intelligence and at the

299
00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:28,320
time it was you know good old-fashioned

300
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:30,880
artificial intelligence it wasn't the

301
00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:32,560
neural network stuff

302
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:34,399
at that point because that was from 1979

303
00:10:38,470 --> 00:10:36,640
to 1983 neural networks came

304
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:38,480
into their own a little bit a few years

305
00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:39,760
later um

306
00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:41,120
so i was doing more of the good

307
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:43,600
old-fashioned ai stuff but still it was

308
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:46,160
you know i was studying human vision and

309
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:48,320
computer vision and the idea was

310
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:49,680
you had a good theory if you could build

311
00:10:52,949 --> 00:10:51,680
a computer that could work

312
00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:52,959
so if you have a theory about how we see

313
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:55,040
in 3d build it if you have

314
00:10:58,230 --> 00:10:56,800
you know if you can't build it then i'm

315
00:10:59,990 --> 00:10:58,240
not sure you have a theory so it was

316
00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:00,000
that really hard-nosed attitude so

317
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:01,760
and then on the other side i was looking

318
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:03,680
with in the brain and cognitive science

319
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:04,560
department

320
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:06,320
um at human vision and the

321
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:07,839
neurophysiology of human vision

322
00:11:10,949 --> 00:11:09,680
psychophysical experiments about how we

323
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:10,959
see in 3d

324
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:13,120
object recognition colors and so forth

325
00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:14,720
so the idea was to

326
00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:18,000
reverse engineer biological vision

327
00:11:19,829 --> 00:11:18,560
systems

328
00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:19,839
which are the only ones that worked at

329
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:23,120
the time and take the insights and try

330
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,720
to build

331
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,720
computer vision systems that implemented

332
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:28,000
what we learned

333
00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,519
and that way we would know we weren't

334
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:31,440
just you know fooling ourselves into

335
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:32,399
thinking we understood

336
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:33,920
if it doesn't work then you don't

337
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:36,000
understand go back and

338
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,959
scratch your head a little bit and

339
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:38,560
figure out what's really going on so it

340
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:39,279
was sorry

341
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:42,640
around what year was this i was there um

342
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:46,320
from 1979 until 1983 at mit

343
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:49,040
and i was very fortunate to have two

344
00:11:52,150 --> 00:11:50,880
wonderful advisors david maher and

345
00:11:56,069 --> 00:11:52,160
whitman richards

346
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:56,079
um so both of them had their foot

347
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:58,240
in the ai lab and in the brain and

348
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:00,320
cognitive science department

349
00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:02,880
cool cool you know i i see a few

350
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:04,240
different strands to your theories and

351
00:12:05,990 --> 00:12:04,800
this

352
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:06,000
just for the people listening or

353
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,079
watching this is going to be

354
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:10,399
extremely technical or much more so than

355
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:11,680
most of the other interviews that you

356
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,639
have online and

357
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:15,120
which i think stay on at a cursory level

358
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:15,760
particularly

359
00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:19,279
with people who don't have a

360
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:21,120
mathematical background or a physics

361
00:12:25,030 --> 00:12:23,279
background so as far as i can delineate

362
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:25,040
you have the consciousness the conscious

363
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:26,320
agent model

364
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,760
interface theory of perception that's

365
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:30,000
number two bayesian decision theory

366
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:31,120
which i believe you

367
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:34,399
mended to computational

368
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:36,160
evolutionary perception i could be wrong

369
00:12:39,590 --> 00:12:37,600
about that and then

370
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,600
number four you have some new papers on

371
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:41,519
eigenforms which i haven't studied much

372
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:43,519
because i don't know much about

373
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:46,079
modular forms and heck algebras so i

374
00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:48,079
didn't get a chance to read them

375
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:50,880
but uh but are those is that a fair

376
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:52,240
summary of your work or

377
00:12:56,710 --> 00:12:55,360
are there more yeah so evolutionary game

378
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:56,720
theory i i work on

379
00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:01,680
um yeah um bayesian models of perception

380
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:03,760
markovian models of the dynamics of

381
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:11,190
out of curiosity this this is getting

382
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:12,320
somewhat out of left field

383
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:14,959
why did you choose g to represent the

384
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:16,079
the braille space for

385
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:18,320
decisions because when i was for those

386
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,279
listening

387
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:22,240
there's this it's there's a relatively

388
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,760
simple structure though

389
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:25,279
non-trivial called sigma algebras and

390
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:26,720
then there's markup kernels and then you

391
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:27,279
have w

392
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,880
you have x which x experience i

393
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:32,480
imagine you chose x because of

394
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:35,760
experience world w okay great but g

395
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:36,959
what does that have to do with decisions

396
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:38,720
why did you choose that to just run out

397
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,519
of letters or

398
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:41,360
yeah we're running out of letters and we

399
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:43,440
already had a for the kernel fractions i

400
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:44,160
mean

401
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:45,600
in some sense g is the set of actions

402
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:46,560
that you're going to take we already

403
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:47,440
used action

404
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,360
a for the action kernel so i used g for

405
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:52,000
the group of of actions that you could

406
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:52,720
take

407
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:54,320
i was thinking about at the time that it

408
00:13:57,750 --> 00:13:56,079
might be have a group structure as well

409
00:13:59,030 --> 00:13:57,760
as a measurable structure

410
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:59,040
so use that's why i use g because

411
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:00,639
already take taken a for the kernel

412
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,440
itself

413
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,600
but the easiest way to think about the

414
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:05,279
definition of a conscious agent

415
00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:07,120
is that it's just three kernels there's

416
00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:09,040
a perception kernel

417
00:14:12,389 --> 00:14:10,959
you so you get the world that influences

418
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:12,399
you through a perception kernel

419
00:14:15,829 --> 00:14:13,600
in other words whatever the state of the

420
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,839
world is it probabilistically affects

421
00:14:18,629 --> 00:14:17,440
what your experiences are that's what a

422
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,639
kernel p does

423
00:14:21,829 --> 00:14:20,160
so whatever the state of the world is

424
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,839
you get a probabilistic effect on your

425
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,880
experiences

426
00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:24,480
then the d kernel is whatever my

427
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:26,560
experiences are they probabilistically

428
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:29,040
affect the actions that i choose

429
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:30,560
and then my action kernel is whatever

430
00:14:33,670 --> 00:14:32,320
actions i choose they probabilistically

431
00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:33,680
affect the state of the world

432
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:35,680
very very simple triangle the state of

433
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:37,600
the world affects my experiences

434
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:40,480
my experiences affect the choices i make

435
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:41,519
the choices i make

436
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,720
affect the state of the world right okay

437
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:46,880
now please forgive me if i jump around i

438
00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:50,079
have 90 questions here

439
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:54,079
and what you're saying right now

440
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:55,680
brings me to question number 80 let's

441
00:15:02,389 --> 00:14:58,720
say so it's gonna go all over the place

442
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:02,399
why did you have x when you could just

443
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:05,120
go from w to g directly by composing d

444
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:05,680
after

445
00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:08,240
p so that is to say for the people you

446
00:15:10,949 --> 00:15:09,360
can explain what i'm saying to the

447
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:10,959
people so in case

448
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:19,030
the the idea when i was working on this

449
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:22,000
model of the perception decision in

450
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:23,600
action the idea

451
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:26,720
is first i'm trying to

452
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,480
model the process of observation

453
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:32,959
so you know i studied computational

454
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:35,279
vision at mit and now and then

455
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:39,120
uc irvine and it turns out when you look

456
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:41,279
at all the specific mathematical models

457
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:42,240
that we have

458
00:15:45,509 --> 00:15:43,680
they all have a similar structure i was

459
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:45,519
trying to capture that similar structure

460
00:15:49,509 --> 00:15:47,519
a sort of a bayesian inference kind of

461
00:15:50,069 --> 00:15:49,519
structure but i wanted to actually

462
00:15:51,749 --> 00:15:50,079
capture

463
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:51,759
the fact that we we do have these

464
00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:53,120
conscious experiences like i'm

465
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:54,880
perceiving a three-dimensional

466
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:56,399
object like an apple and i'm seeing its

467
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,240
three-dimensional shape as colors

468
00:16:01,269 --> 00:16:00,320
it's textures and so forth so i needed a

469
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,279
space x

470
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,920
of experiences to capture what what it

471
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:05,680
was that i was perceiving

472
00:16:10,069 --> 00:16:08,560
but then you know perception doesn't

473
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,079
occur in a void

474
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:12,160
there's a perspective perception action

475
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:14,560
loop right there's this a point that

476
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:17,279
sort of an activist um approaches uh

477
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,720
highlighting that is that

478
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:20,959
perception and action sort of work

479
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:23,040
together and so i i want a model in

480
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:23,519
which

481
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:25,680
i have experiences but those are tied to

482
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:27,360
my actions and those actions

483
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:29,839
affect the world and my experiences in

484
00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:30,959
in a loop

485
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,880
and so that's why there's this this loop

486
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,480
structure to it and to leave

487
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,240
out the experiences would actually be to

488
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,680
leave out um

489
00:16:41,749 --> 00:16:40,000
the whole point which is to understand

490
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:41,759
my perceptions

491
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,959
okay when i watch your interviews with

492
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,639
people who most of the time aren't

493
00:16:51,670 --> 00:16:48,880
physicists they seem to be resistant

494
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:51,680
on that space time is emergent like

495
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,720
michael schermer

496
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,240
and he was saying well you probably

497
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:55,600
talked to the minority of physicists

498
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:56,079
that think that

499
00:16:59,509 --> 00:16:58,560
space time is emerging that's not in

500
00:17:01,350 --> 00:16:59,519
fact true

501
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:01,360
most physicists as far as i know

502
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,800
actually believe that space time is

503
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:03,600
emergent

504
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:09,429
so why do you think that there's this

505
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:10,480
aversion

506
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,240
to modest that is monoism

507
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:16,000
theory is predicated on the primacy of

508
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:17,360
consciousness rather than the primacy

509
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:18,480
being material

510
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:21,520
why is it that that's the sticking point

511
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:24,720
right well and even among physicists

512
00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:26,720
who recognize that space time isn't

513
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:28,240
fundamental

514
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,039
um you won't find very many of them

515
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:35,600
arguing that therefore consciousness is

516
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:38,080
a good candidate for what is fundamental

517
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:41,600
um i've been to an fqxi

518
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:44,320
um meeting of physicists where they were

519
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:45,679
looking at the role of the observer in

520
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:46,080
physics

521
00:17:51,990 --> 00:17:49,600
at banff a few years ago and

522
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:52,000
even in that context where where they

523
00:17:57,350 --> 00:17:53,520
were looking at the role of the observer

524
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:57,360
in physics i didn't see any of the

525
00:18:01,110 --> 00:18:00,240
physicists there interested in taking

526
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:01,120
consciousness

527
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:04,240
as fundamental and and i think

528
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:08,480
the attitude is why take such a huge

529
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:10,080
leap

530
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:11,840
i mean letting go of space time is one

531
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,000
thing but jumping into consciousness

532
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,760
i mean that that for i think most

533
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:17,440
physicists would say that's a much

534
00:18:22,230 --> 00:18:19,280
bigger leap than we need to take let's

535
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:22,240
try to find just some deeper structure

536
00:18:26,470 --> 00:18:23,280
beyond space

537
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,480
time and for example this is i think the

538
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:28,640
brilliant work that nema or kanye hamed

539
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,000
is doing where he's saying

540
00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:33,280
look we can look

541
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:36,160
at these so-called positive geometries

542
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:38,080
behind space-time the amplitude

543
00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:40,880
a sociohedron and other things that he's

544
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:41,520
finding

545
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:43,600
positive grasmanians the bigger

546
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:44,559
structure that

547
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,679
includes many of these and and

548
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:49,760
he doesn't know what that realm is about

549
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:51,360
which is fine but he's finding the

550
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,880
mathematical structure so he's finding

551
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,400
that there are these symmetries like in

552
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:56,240
the amplitude

553
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:59,360
um that can't be captured

554
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,679
in space-time they also have found that

555
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:03,520
the mathematical

556
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:05,120
description of the scattering amplitudes

557
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:06,400
the computations of the scattering

558
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:07,600
amplitudes

559
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:09,360
become much much simpler when you let go

560
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:10,799
of space time if you use

561
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:12,960
um feynman diagrams and have virtual

562
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:14,480
particles in space time then you could

563
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:16,160
have hundreds or thousands of pages

564
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,000
but in this deeper space that he's

565
00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:19,919
finding this pure math

566
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:22,640
um it collapses to a few terms that you

567
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:24,000
can compute by hand

568
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:28,160
and so so i think that the physicists

569
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:31,919
are saying let's you know let's not

570
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:34,320
jump further than we have to let's if we

571
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:35,679
have to let go of spacetime let's just

572
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:36,160
find

573
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,840
some let's let's let the mathematics

574
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:39,360
guide us first

575
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:41,760
um and we can try things like well let's

576
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:43,440
just try like quantum bits in quantum

577
00:19:46,870 --> 00:19:43,840
case

578
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:46,880
seth lloyd i think at mit took a a an

579
00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:47,679
approach

580
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:49,760
and quantum what quantum bits and

581
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:51,039
quantum gates

582
00:19:54,789 --> 00:19:53,200
gates right okay right so your space

583
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:54,799
time isn't fundamental let's

584
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,280
let's pause it something that's not

585
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:59,039
conscious just quantum bits and quantum

586
00:20:02,390 --> 00:20:00,000
gates

587
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:02,400
and what what seth lloyd was able to

588
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:03,360
show is that you could

589
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:06,000
in some sense get little patches of

590
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:07,280
space time

591
00:20:12,789 --> 00:20:11,760
the curvature of this little patch was

592
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:12,799
proportional to the

593
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:15,840
action of the gate and so instead of

594
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,200
starting with space time is fundamental

595
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:18,960
you start with quantum bits and quantum

596
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:21,280
gates um where those bits and gates come

597
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,919
from again

598
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:23,360
that's now that's that's your new

599
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:24,799
assumption it's not space time it's just

600
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:26,000
bits and gates and you can ask

601
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:27,760
you know who ordered that why should the

602
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:30,320
universe be fundamentally that

603
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:34,159
now so the reason why i go there

604
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:35,600
even though i think most physicists

605
00:20:39,909 --> 00:20:37,840
don't is that

606
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:39,919
as a cognitive neuroscientist i'm very

607
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:41,200
interested

608
00:20:45,830 --> 00:20:44,000
in the problem what's called the heart

609
00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:45,840
problem of consciousness

610
00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:48,080
right we have lots of correlations

611
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:49,679
between brain activity

612
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:52,559
and conscious experiences like i i like

613
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:55,039
to use the example of area v4

614
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:57,440
of cortex left hemispheres back over

615
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:58,480
here somewhere

616
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,799
if you take a magnet and just touch it

617
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:02,640
to your skull there a transcranial

618
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:04,960
magnetic stimulator and inhibit before

619
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:07,200
you will lose all color experiences in

620
00:21:09,909 --> 00:21:08,799
the right visual field everything to the

621
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:09,919
right of where you're looking

622
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:12,000
you will lose color experiences you turn

623
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:13,760
off the magnet color experiences come

624
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:14,799
back

625
00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:16,640
and we have dozens maybe hundreds of

626
00:21:19,909 --> 00:21:18,400
correlations like that between specific

627
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:19,919
kinds of neural activity

628
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:21,919
and specific conscious experiences but

629
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,840
we have no scientific theories

630
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:26,720
that can explain um that correlation

631
00:21:29,909 --> 00:21:27,840
there are none

632
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,919
um for any specific there's not a

633
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:31,440
scientific theory that can explain even

634
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:32,480
one specific

635
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,919
conscious experience like the taste of

636
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,840
chocolate or the smell of garlic that

637
00:21:39,750 --> 00:21:37,200
says for example

638
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:39,760
this pattern of brain activity or this

639
00:21:44,549 --> 00:21:42,080
functional aspect of brain activity

640
00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:44,559
um must be the taste of chocolate it

641
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:46,080
couldn't be the the smell of

642
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:49,039
um you know a rose and these are the

643
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:50,880
precise reasons why

644
00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:53,280
there's just nothing on the table and so

645
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:55,919
i'm trying to

646
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:00,720
reason why space time is

647
00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:03,919
not fundamental is because something

648
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:05,360
else is consciousness

649
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,440
and if i start with consciousness i can

650
00:22:11,510 --> 00:22:09,840
perhaps get a theory that explains

651
00:22:13,909 --> 00:22:11,520
this correlation between conscious

652
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,919
experiences and brain states but i don't

653
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:15,120
start with

654
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:16,720
something in space time namely brain

655
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,799
states i don't start with brain states

656
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,320
and and figure out how they cause

657
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:22,320
consciousness i go the other way around

658
00:22:24,470 --> 00:22:23,919
to start with consciousness and show how

659
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:24,480
it

660
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:27,120
creates space time as a data structure

661
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:27,600
and

662
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:32,720
within that data structure

663
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:35,520
so so the idea of the big picture idea

664
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:37,120
is

665
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:45,120
then objects in space time

666
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,799
and just so people are clear this is not

667
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:48,880
as this is not new that space time isn't

668
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:50,720
fundamental it's not like a kooky theory

669
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:53,039
this has been going around since the 80s

670
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:54,080
just so that they don't think you're

671
00:22:59,909 --> 00:22:56,799
glumming onto some fat

672
00:23:01,990 --> 00:22:59,919
that that that's right and yeah you know

673
00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:02,000
i think mo as you said most physicists

674
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,600
now most you know first ranked

675
00:23:06,390 --> 00:23:05,360
theoretical physicist just recognize

676
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,400
that it's sort of just

677
00:23:10,149 --> 00:23:08,640
of course space time isn't fundamental

678
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:10,159
and of course our job is to try to

679
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:11,919
figure out what's the next step

680
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,600
um and it's not such a crazy idea either

681
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:17,039
right when you're speaking with michael

682
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,640
schumer he was just blown away there's

683
00:23:20,950 --> 00:23:20,159
no way that space time can't be

684
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:20,960
fundamental

685
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:22,400
there's a cup in front of me i see the

686
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:25,280
cup that's that's beside the point

687
00:23:27,909 --> 00:23:26,640
there's been many times where we have an

688
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:27,919
effective theory and then we find one

689
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:29,440
that's more fundamental that produces

690
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:30,080
that

691
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,480
current theories aren't effective

692
00:23:38,870 --> 00:23:37,280
right and and my colleagues in the

693
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:38,880
cognitive neurosciences can can be

694
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:39,760
forgiven

695
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:41,279
if they don't understand the state of

696
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:43,279
the play in in physics right i mean

697
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:44,720
they're they

698
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:47,919
were taught some physics

699
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:50,799
in their backgrounds and they have just

700
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:51,760
absorbed

701
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,679
the idea that space-time is fundamental

702
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:55,360
and that's perfectly fine in a newtonian

703
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:56,640
universe and

704
00:24:02,070 --> 00:23:59,679
even in special relativity um it's and

705
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:02,080
in general relativity is when you put

706
00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:04,000
einstein's theory of gravity together

707
00:24:08,470 --> 00:24:05,919
with quantum theory

708
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:08,480
that you get the problem and that that's

709
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,440
sort of beyond

710
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:11,279
what you could expect a normal cognitive

711
00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:13,279
neuroscientist to to really have studied

712
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,760
and so

713
00:24:16,789 --> 00:24:15,679
so you know i don't i don't blame my

714
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:16,799
colleagues there

715
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:20,080
for for not understanding this um but

716
00:24:23,269 --> 00:24:22,720
but for for any real professional

717
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:23,279
physicist

718
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:25,440
is just obviously you generally quantum

719
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:26,880
field they don't play well

720
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,640
i see there's two problems one if you

721
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:30,080
encounter the general public and when i

722
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:31,520
say general public i mean

723
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:33,279
the rationally minded skeptics like

724
00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:35,440
michael sherman or maybe even sam harris

725
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,960
and they'll their sticking point might

726
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:39,600
be the space-time fundamental aspect

727
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:40,880
right but then when you speak to a

728
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:42,559
physicist their sticking point would be

729
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:43,440
consciousness you're saying

730
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,640
consciousness is fun like i agree with

731
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:46,480
you space time is emerging but then

732
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:48,720
consciousness is complicated that's an

733
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:49,840
emerging phenomenon

734
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:52,880
for a neuroscientist to figure out or or

735
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:55,440
some people like penrose there's some

736
00:24:57,269 --> 00:24:56,960
quantum mechanical aspect to it but it's

737
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,279
still

738
00:25:01,110 --> 00:24:59,279
somewhat complicated it's not simple why

739
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:01,120
would you start with consciousness

740
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:03,840
right okay i have a question about sure

741
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:05,200
can you just respond to

742
00:25:11,029 --> 00:25:08,320
why that is the idea

743
00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:11,039
is very very simple if space time isn't

744
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:12,559
fundamental

745
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:14,000
then objects in spacetime aren't

746
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:16,000
fundamental either

747
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,440
and if they're not fundamental then they

748
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:19,279
aren't this true source of causal

749
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:21,039
power in the universe physical objects

750
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:22,559
have no cause of powers

751
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:24,799
it's a useful fiction to think that the

752
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:26,000
eight ball

753
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:29,039
being hit by the cue ball um has

754
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,880
there's a causal interaction or that

755
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:32,640
neurons have causal effects

756
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:34,559
but it's just a fiction and so that's

757
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:36,320
why i tied the two together

758
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:40,159
neurons being objects in space time has

759
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:41,520
no have no causal powers

760
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:44,400
my brain causes none of my behavior it

761
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:47,440
causes none of my experiences

762
00:25:53,190 --> 00:25:51,039
but that that means that therefore

763
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:53,200
any attempt to show how we solve the

764
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:54,480
hard problem of consciousness starting

765
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:55,760
with brain activity and trying to boot

766
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:57,200
up consciousness will fail

767
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:58,880
so my idea is simple let's start with

768
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:00,880
the theory of consciousness and show how

769
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:03,760
space-time is not fundamental it's just

770
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:05,840
a data structure within consciousness

771
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:07,760
that's why space-time isn't fundamental

772
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:10,159
it's merely a data structure a

773
00:26:13,350 --> 00:26:11,440
visualization tool

774
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:13,360
that con that consciousness uses to

775
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:15,039
interact with other consciousnesses

776
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:17,360
so so i'm the reason so this is all tied

777
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:18,159
together

778
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:21,120
the the space time being not fundamental

779
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:22,720
and the move to make consciousness

780
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:24,000
fundamental is all part

781
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:27,120
of one big move recognizing that

782
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:29,440
that brain activity could not possibly

783
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:32,480
cause our conscious experiences

784
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:34,000
so why don't we try the other way let's

785
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:35,360
start with conscious experiences and

786
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,400
show how they cause

787
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:40,720
and objects to arise merely as data

788
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:41,600
structures

789
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,919
within consciousness okay getting to the

790
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:45,760
neural correlates aspect

791
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:48,400
you mentioned that it would be to say

792
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:50,240
that hey because our brain is correlated

793
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:52,159
with certain conscious experiences

794
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:54,080
it's that's one thing but then to say

795
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,919
that the brain causes it is another it

796
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:57,360
would be akin to saying

797
00:27:00,870 --> 00:26:58,960
there's a train track there's a subway

798
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:00,880
station and people form right before the

799
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:02,000
train comes

800
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:03,120
right but it doesn't mean that the

801
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:05,039
people themselves caused the train to

802
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:05,840
come

803
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,480
however you just mentioned that there's

804
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:10,480
transcranial magnetic stimulation

805
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:14,640
where we can in fact perturb neurons

806
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,880
and then see it would be one thing if we

807
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:18,240
saw conscious experience

808
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:19,840
then looked at the neurons and then saw

809
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:20,960
that there's some association that's

810
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:21,600
correlation

811
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:23,360
but then if we can perturb the neurons

812
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:25,360
to elicit a conscious experience

813
00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:27,840
why is that not evidence for the causal

814
00:27:31,669 --> 00:27:29,600
power going from neurons to

815
00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:31,679
conscious experience great question and

816
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,799
that's what my colleagues would all

817
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:34,480
point to is that look they'd say

818
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:36,880
look we can intervene i can literally

819
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:38,000
manipulate the brain

820
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:40,080
and get a change in conscious experience

821
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:42,080
the fact that i can intervene means i'm

822
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:42,880
showing you

823
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:44,399
the true causal structure of what's

824
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:46,080
going on there and that's a logical

825
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:46,799
error

826
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:48,480
and it's very easy to see the logical

827
00:27:50,710 --> 00:27:49,760
air imagine you're playing a virtual

828
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,720
reality game and

829
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:52,720
you're driving a car you're driving a

830
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:55,120
mustang in a virtual reality game right

831
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:56,880
and you have a steering wheel and it

832
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,640
turns out you can you can

833
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:00,320
intervene in that if i turn the steering

834
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:02,720
wheel to the left my car actually turns

835
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:03,679
left in the game

836
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,799
if i turn the steering wheel to the

837
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:06,320
right the car turns right therefore

838
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,679
there must be a real steering wheel and

839
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:09,600
it must have real causal powers

840
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,919
nope there's no real steering wheel that

841
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:13,440
that's not that's not the claim well

842
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:13,840
that's

843
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:16,159
that might be their claim my claim or my

844
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:17,039
question

845
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:20,240
is it is correct to say that the turning

846
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:22,399
of the steering wheel causes turning in

847
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:22,960
the game

848
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,720
now it might not be that the turning of

849
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,039
the steering wheel

850
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:29,120
is akin in causal power to weigh the to

851
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:30,080
the way that we would think that the

852
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:31,440
turning of the steering wheel in a

853
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:36,000
real car changes the wheels and the axes

854
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:39,200
but all that we need for for causation

855
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:40,720
to be shown is a implies b

856
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:41,600
it doesn't matter that they're

857
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:44,559
intermediate steps

858
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:45,840
do you understand what i'm saying or am

859
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:47,919
i not well i'm not explaining it

860
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:48,559
correctly

861
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,159
well the the thing about the steering

862
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,080
wheel that you see in in the virtual

863
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:53,600
reality game is that

864
00:28:58,549 --> 00:28:56,640
if you turn your headset to the side

865
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:58,559
the steering wheel ceases to exist there

866
00:29:00,710 --> 00:28:59,679
is no steering wheel because i'm not

867
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:00,720
looking at it anymore

868
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,880
the steering when i look back over to

869
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:04,000
where the steering wheel should be

870
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:05,760
i see a steering wheel the steering

871
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,000
wheel is something

872
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:10,960
that i create and destroy as i need it's

873
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:11,600
gone

874
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:14,320
now it's back it has no causal powers

875
00:29:17,909 --> 00:29:15,360
the steering wheel

876
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,919
literally has no causal powers it it

877
00:29:21,990 --> 00:29:19,760
informs

878
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:22,000
me as the player about actions that i

879
00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:23,279
can take

880
00:29:26,870 --> 00:29:25,360
to to interact with the game but the stu

881
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,880
but and the way i

882
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:30,080
see myself the way i visualize what i'm

883
00:29:32,389 --> 00:29:30,799
doing is i

884
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:32,399
visualize myself turning the steering

885
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:34,159
wheel but that's all just a useful

886
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:35,039
fiction

887
00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:36,720
and the steering wheel itself literally

888
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:38,840
has no causal powers it's

889
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,360
literally only in my head

890
00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:43,840
there is no external steering wheel with

891
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:45,039
with causal powers

892
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:46,720
and i'm saying that that's true not just

893
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:49,039
in virtual reality but in everyday life

894
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,159
because

895
00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,720
space-time is not fundamental it's just

896
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,000
your headset

897
00:29:58,389 --> 00:29:56,320
when you go around in everyday life

898
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:58,399
think virtual reality

899
00:30:02,070 --> 00:30:01,279
i create the moon when i look up in the

900
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,080
sky

901
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:04,480
i delete it when i look away there is no

902
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:05,279
moon just

903
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:06,559
in the same way that there is no

904
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:08,080
steering wheel in the virtual reality

905
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:08,799
game

906
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:12,559
so when einstein you know asked uh

907
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,640
someone that was with him um do you

908
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:16,799
really believe the moon is only there

909
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:18,320
when you look and it's not there when

910
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:20,799
when no one looks um my answer is yeah

911
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:22,240
it does it's not there when no one looks

912
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,279
there is no moon

913
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:25,600
because there is no space time it's and

914
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,720
see that's the part

915
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:28,080
that einstein wouldn't like right

916
00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:29,360
because his theory was the theory of

917
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:30,240
space time

918
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:34,240
really understand what that means

919
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:37,360
nothing inside space-time is fundamental

920
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:39,440
nothing and therefore nothing inside

921
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:41,919
space-time has genuine causal powers it

922
00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:44,159
emerges from something deeper

923
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:46,480
it's a useful fiction that our species

924
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:47,760
has to think that

925
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:50,080
physical objects have causal powers i

926
00:30:52,710 --> 00:30:50,880
throw a rock

927
00:30:55,510 --> 00:30:52,720
it hits a window the rock caused the

928
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:55,520
window to break that's a useful fiction

929
00:31:02,630 --> 00:30:59,679
i inhibit area v4 color disappears

930
00:31:04,630 --> 00:31:02,640
aha therefore v4 causes color it's a

931
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:04,640
useful fiction but it's just a fiction

932
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:06,000
just like the steering wheel

933
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:08,480
in the virtual reality game okay let's

934
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:10,000
remove the virtual reality let's just

935
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,919
pretend it's a regular game with a tv

936
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:13,360
screen and you have a controller in

937
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:14,000
front of you

938
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:15,679
right and then you move your analog

939
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:17,120
stick to the left and the character

940
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:18,240
moves to the left

941
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,159
then would you say that the move that

942
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:22,080
you moving the analog stick to the left

943
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:24,720
causes the character to move to the left

944
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:26,960
yeah in that metaphor now you within

945
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,799
that metaphor you would say that the

946
00:31:32,310 --> 00:31:30,720
the the icon on the screen was the thing

947
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:32,320
that caused things to move right

948
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,000
so if i saw myself right now like a

949
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:35,840
paddle hit the thing like in pawn

950
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,960
i hit hit a ball with the no it's really

951
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:40,320
in that in that metaphor would be the

952
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:41,679
joystick that was the real thing

953
00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:43,840
but i'm saying once you get that

954
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:44,799
recognize that

955
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:47,519
the world around you is just the screen

956
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,200
even the joystick in your head

957
00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:50,799
like the joystick in your hand the

958
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,399
joystick is in your head okay

959
00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,640
is in your head itself because space see

960
00:31:57,509 --> 00:31:56,480
that's the real point about what physics

961
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:57,519
has discovered

962
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:00,559
space-time is not fundamental it's hard

963
00:32:06,789 --> 00:32:03,279
for us to really grasp that

964
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:06,799
it's really we so deeply believe

965
00:32:12,149 --> 00:32:09,760
that of course space-time is fundamental

966
00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:12,159
of course the moon is there

967
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:14,480
when no one looks but when you really

968
00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:17,200
grasp space-time is not fundamental

969
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:19,600
it and it's actually our construction

970
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:20,480
then

971
00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:22,080
physical objects don't even exist when

972
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:23,919
they're not perceived

973
00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:26,080
they don't have causal powers they don't

974
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:27,440
even exist

975
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:29,919
you can think of this what i'm doing

976
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:31,840
right now as

977
00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:34,640
as partly to convince because i already

978
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:36,559
have a predilection towards your ideas i

979
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,279
already like

980
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:39,360
you and i like your ideas so you don't

981
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:40,640
need to convince me too much although i

982
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:42,240
do have some objections

983
00:32:48,149 --> 00:32:45,919
but i'm i'm demarcating where i feel

984
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:48,159
people like michael shermer and so on

985
00:32:51,909 --> 00:32:48,960
have problems

986
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:51,919
because they take that virtual reality

987
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,640
metaphor

988
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:54,240
and there's some there are some problems

989
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:56,880
with it because well like i said forget

990
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:58,240
the virtual reality just imagine a

991
00:33:02,310 --> 00:32:59,760
screen and then you have an analog stick

992
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:02,320
and then those two get conflated right

993
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:02,880
okay

994
00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:04,720
there's another problem that i see with

995
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:06,159
the virtual reality

996
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:10,640
metaphor when you take off the headset

997
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:12,799
there is still the computer rendering it

998
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:14,000
to the lcd

999
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,919
now there are some monitors there are

1000
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:17,760
some virtual reality headsets that

1001
00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:18,880
detect when your

1002
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,399
forehead is there and then just shut it

1003
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:22,320
off but let's imagine that's not there

1004
00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:23,840
then they're like well it still persists

1005
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:25,440
even if when i look to the left it

1006
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:26,799
renders what's on the left or look to

1007
00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:27,760
the right it renders

1008
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,279
but i can even simulate someone

1009
00:33:34,389 --> 00:33:33,440
going through a game without a conscious

1010
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:34,399
perceiver

1011
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:36,799
and then i can set my video camera up to

1012
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,679
record that

1013
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,519
and that person that character is moving

1014
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:41,600
through the game there is no perceiver

1015
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:42,880
right then and there

1016
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:47,279
that's that's that's why i see this

1017
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:50,559
virtual reality metaphor as having some

1018
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:52,000
limitations but what would you say to

1019
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:55,519
that that look even without a perceiver

1020
00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:56,960
i put the headset down it's still

1021
00:34:03,669 --> 00:33:59,039
rendering

1022
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:03,679
well um that now in terms of physics

1023
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:07,039
is the question of um

1024
00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,079
do physical objects literally

1025
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:12,480
exist and have definite values of their

1026
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:13,119
properties

1027
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:15,440
when they're not perceived so that's the

1028
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:16,879
question of

1029
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:19,200
local realism right so local so this is

1030
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:20,000
a technical question

1031
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:21,520
in physics and this is what we're really

1032
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:23,119
addressing here is the question of local

1033
00:34:26,069 --> 00:34:23,919
realism

1034
00:34:27,669 --> 00:34:26,079
do physical objects really exist and

1035
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:27,679
have definite values

1036
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,359
of physical properties like position

1037
00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:31,119
momentum and spin when they're not

1038
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:32,000
observed

1039
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:34,240
and is it true that those properties

1040
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,760
have effects that propagate no faster

1041
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:37,440
than the speed of light

1042
00:34:41,669 --> 00:34:40,720
and you might intuitively think well of

1043
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,679
course

1044
00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:43,839
the moon has a position it has a

1045
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:45,520
momentum an electron has a position a

1046
00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:46,879
momentum

1047
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:50,000
a spin value spin axis when it's not

1048
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:51,520
observed of course

1049
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:55,200
but when we do the experiments um

1050
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:57,200
first you know when this was first

1051
00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:58,400
raised you know

1052
00:35:02,390 --> 00:34:59,839
einstein was one of the ones who asked

1053
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:02,400
this question back in the epr paper back

1054
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:03,520
in 1935

1055
00:35:08,710 --> 00:35:07,040
right and a number of physicists

1056
00:35:10,870 --> 00:35:08,720
including wolfgang paulie thought that

1057
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,880
this was ludicrous that einstein was

1058
00:35:15,030 --> 00:35:13,040
asking a question like you know that was

1059
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:15,040
no more

1060
00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,560
interesting than how many angels can

1061
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:18,320
dance on the head of a pen how could you

1062
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:20,240
possibly answer einstein's question does

1063
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:20,480
a

1064
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,680
silly by definition

1065
00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:28,960
if you're not observing how could you

1066
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:30,320
tell whether it has a positional

1067
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:31,680
momentum or not

1068
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:36,240
but it when it turned out in 1963 or so

1069
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:38,800
uh the physicist john bell discovered

1070
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:40,960
that we can answer that question you

1071
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:43,280
there is a series of experiments you

1072
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:44,560
know that you can do measurements that

1073
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:45,599
you can do

1074
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:47,680
that will give you certain statistics

1075
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:49,040
that can

1076
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,880
allow you to decide whether or not local

1077
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:52,480
realism is true

1078
00:35:55,349 --> 00:35:54,160
and that was a real stunning achievement

1079
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:55,359
one of the greatest intellectual

1080
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:56,800
achievements in human history

1081
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:00,320
john bell's inequalities

1082
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:03,040
and and then a year later john bell and

1083
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:05,200
coken and specker

1084
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:08,320
apparently independently also came up

1085
00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:09,599
with a way to

1086
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:13,320
to test non-contextual realism

1087
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:15,520
non-contextualism realism is the claim

1088
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:16,480
that

1089
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,640
objects exist and have definite values

1090
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:19,839
of their properties when they're not

1091
00:36:24,870 --> 00:36:21,040
observed that's

1092
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,880
the the realism and the values of those

1093
00:36:28,470 --> 00:36:26,960
properties don't depend on the way you

1094
00:36:31,910 --> 00:36:28,480
measure them

1095
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:31,920
that's the non-contextual part and

1096
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,040
once again quantum theory entails

1097
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,640
that non-contextual realism is false

1098
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:40,480
it also entails that local realism is

1099
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:42,640
false and

1100
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:45,359
it's been tested and it's true local

1101
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:46,560
realism is false

1102
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:52,640
that is that electron has a position

1103
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:54,880
when it's not observed or locality is

1104
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:56,160
false

1105
00:36:59,750 --> 00:36:58,000
the influences propagate no faster than

1106
00:37:02,470 --> 00:36:59,760
the speed of light or both

1107
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,480
and i think that both both are false

1108
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:04,079
local realism is just plain false

1109
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:06,480
non-contextual realism is false and once

1110
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:07,680
we understand that

1111
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:09,760
that means that there right did you say

1112
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:13,119
that non-local realism is also false

1113
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,480
uh yeah because space time is not

1114
00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:16,160
fundamental so the right

1115
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:18,240
right now space time itself is just i

1116
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,359
mean the big

1117
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:21,520
take home is space time is not

1118
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:22,800
fundamental therefore

1119
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:24,800
particles and their properties inside

1120
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:26,400
space-time are not fundamental

1121
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:28,800
for a physicist this is obvious because

1122
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:29,680
um you know

1123
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:32,000
as soon as you say space-time is not

1124
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:33,760
fundamental it's emergent from something

1125
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:34,800
else

1126
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:36,400
well that takes particles with them

1127
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:38,960
because particles are nothing

1128
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:42,079
but irreducible representations of the

1129
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:43,680
symmetries of space-time

1130
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:46,320
the poincare group so particles are

1131
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:47,760
irreducible representations of the

1132
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:48,960
poincare group which are just the

1133
00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:50,160
symmetries of space time

1134
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:51,680
the space time's not fundamental neither

1135
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,200
are particles so

1136
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:55,440
so my colleagues in cognitive

1137
00:37:58,390 --> 00:37:56,560
neurosciences

1138
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,400
we're still back thinking that oh we

1139
00:38:01,349 --> 00:38:00,000
have this reductionist view space time

1140
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:01,359
is fundamental

1141
00:38:04,470 --> 00:38:03,680
you start off with protons and neutrons

1142
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:04,480
or if you're

1143
00:38:10,710 --> 00:38:07,599
more sophisticated quarks and leptons

1144
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:10,720
in gluons than gravitons and

1145
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:12,560
those are the elementary particles the

1146
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:13,760
laws that govern them are the

1147
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:14,880
fundamental laws of

1148
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:17,200
of all of reality and we can in a

1149
00:38:20,870 --> 00:38:18,640
reductive fashion

1150
00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:20,880
fashion build up everything from that

1151
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:22,720
well that whole foundation is gone

1152
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:24,640
space-time is not fundamental those

1153
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,160
particles are not fundamental

1154
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:28,320
reductionism is dead space-time

1155
00:38:32,870 --> 00:38:29,760
reductionism is dead

1156
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:32,880
we need a completely new framework now

1157
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:34,800
brilliant physicists like neymar connie

1158
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:37,040
hamid going after the amplitude and so

1159
00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:37,520
forth

1160
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:41,280
are looking for new foundations for

1161
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:44,160
physics outside of space time

1162
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:45,760
but it's not a reductionist kind of

1163
00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:47,520
approach does

1164
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:50,079
nema say that consciousness is

1165
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:51,040
fundamental or

1166
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:52,560
are you just saying well nema has a

1167
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:54,400
theory that simplifies space and time

1168
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,440
down to something else

1169
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:58,079
and maybe with your theory the cognitive

1170
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:00,320
the conscious agent theory you can imply

1171
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,240
the amplitude of hedron and therefore

1172
00:39:06,870 --> 00:39:05,040
you can apply whatever neem is implying

1173
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:06,880
or does not does nima think that

1174
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:08,320
consciousness is fundamental

1175
00:39:12,870 --> 00:39:11,760
i i i have no idea what nema thinks

1176
00:39:15,109 --> 00:39:12,880
about consciousness

1177
00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:15,119
i haven't seen him talk about it myself

1178
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:16,720
in any of his

1179
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:19,599
writings or or lectures um i mean i

1180
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:21,200
would be surprised

1181
00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:24,320
if it turned out he thinks consciousness

1182
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:25,599
is fundamental i would be very very

1183
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:26,160
surprised

1184
00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:27,920
but i but the right answer is i don't i

1185
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,359
don't know what he thinks about that

1186
00:39:33,030 --> 00:39:31,520
i would bet good odds that he doesn't

1187
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:33,040
think consciousness is fundamental but

1188
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:34,960
but i don't know i certainly would not

1189
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:36,400
want to ascribe that point of view to

1190
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:36,880
him

1191
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:39,599
all all i've seen from his lectures in

1192
00:39:42,150 --> 00:39:40,480
writing is that

1193
00:39:43,990 --> 00:39:42,160
there are these beautiful mathematical

1194
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:44,000
structures these positive geometries

1195
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:46,079
amplitude sociohedra

1196
00:39:50,470 --> 00:39:49,680
that are that are more fundamental than

1197
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:50,480
space-time

1198
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:53,280
and that in magical ways seem to give

1199
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:55,520
rise to the scattering amplitude so like

1200
00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:57,040
two glones hitting each other four

1201
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:58,960
gluons go spraying out

1202
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:01,680
those scattering amplitudes turn out to

1203
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:02,240
be

1204
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,359
volumes of these geometric objects he's

1205
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:07,680
finding these positive geometries

1206
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:10,480
but what this new deeper realm is about

1207
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:11,440
i haven't seen him

1208
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:14,319
speculate about you know what is this

1209
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,079
telling us

1210
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:18,319
is the realm behind spacetime what is

1211
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:19,839
that realm about i haven't seen him

1212
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:21,920
speculate that he might have some

1213
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:23,599
some speculations but i haven't seen him

1214
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:25,839
he just goes with the math

1215
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:27,520
ask for bell's inequality i'm sure

1216
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:28,960
you're aware that there are some ways

1217
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:29,599
around it

1218
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:32,240
so for example super determinism as well

1219
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:34,000
as a couple others that i can't recall

1220
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,560
right now

1221
00:40:38,630 --> 00:40:36,720
edwin james he didn't particularly think

1222
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:38,640
bell's inequalities or the experiments

1223
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:40,000
that validate those inequalities

1224
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:43,359
demonstrate that non-realism is is the

1225
00:40:47,109 --> 00:40:44,240
way to go

1226
00:40:48,309 --> 00:40:47,119
what do you say to those objections well

1227
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:48,319
i i would say

1228
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:53,200
that um the deeper

1229
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:54,880
problems between general relativity and

1230
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:56,319
quantum field theory

1231
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:57,920
that force us to recognize that

1232
00:41:01,270 --> 00:40:59,839
space-time isn't fundamental

1233
00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:01,280
are the ones that clinch it for me

1234
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:03,200
against realism because

1235
00:41:07,349 --> 00:41:05,760
realism about art but entities that are

1236
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:07,359
that are merely representations of space

1237
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:07,839
time

1238
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,520
fundamental is is is now beside the

1239
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:15,750
why what made you choose nema's

1240
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:17,680
amplitude of hedron as opposed to the

1241
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:19,040
other

1242
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:21,200
perhaps simpler models that demonstrate

1243
00:41:24,069 --> 00:41:22,480
the space time is emergent

1244
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,079
we mentioned a few others before this

1245
00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:26,160
call like causal causal dynamic

1246
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:28,000
triangulation there's also spin foam

1247
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:30,240
networks

1248
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:33,680
right um i've been

1249
00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:43,349
because he explains in ways that i

1250
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:44,480
really understand

1251
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:48,880
why we can't really

1252
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:51,920
even have a vestige of space-time as

1253
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:52,960
being fundamental

1254
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:56,560
right so we we can't we can't take one

1255
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:58,000
part of a time

1256
00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,760
or one part of its space and and try to

1257
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:01,200
boot up the other we

1258
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:04,160
and and and nemo recognizes that we we

1259
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:04,960
also

1260
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:06,800
can't expect that quantum theory is

1261
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,079
fundamental

1262
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:10,960
he's saying look it's it's it's deeper

1263
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:13,520
than just space time

1264
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,640
we're going to have to have a deeper

1265
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:16,720
framework in which space-time

1266
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:19,760
and quantum theory together

1267
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:23,280
arise joined at the hip and

1268
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:25,520
and so many of the techniques are saying

1269
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:26,480
look what

1270
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:30,000
let's if general relativity

1271
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:32,000
is a you know is not a quantum theory

1272
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:33,599
it's it's a classical theory

1273
00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:36,640
it's continuous space and so forth so

1274
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:39,599
maybe what we need to do is let quantum

1275
00:42:42,550 --> 00:42:40,640
be fundamental

1276
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:42,560
and then we'll try to somehow quantize

1277
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:44,640
space time and nema is going

1278
00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:47,520
far more deep he's saying we need a new

1279
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:48,640
framework in which

1280
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:51,760
locality and space time and

1281
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:55,839
unitarity of quantum theory

1282
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:57,760
arise together from something that's

1283
00:43:03,030 --> 00:42:59,760
neither local in space-time and

1284
00:43:05,829 --> 00:43:03,040
non-unitary and that's

1285
00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:05,839
i think so i'm going i'm going after

1286
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:06,720
nema

1287
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:09,119
um partly because i think that he makes

1288
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:11,359
a good case that that space-time and

1289
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:12,240
quantum theory

1290
00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:14,160
both have to emerge from something

1291
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,640
deeper and that we really need them

1292
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:18,480
we need to bite the bullet and recognize

1293
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:20,319
we can't go halfway we need

1294
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:24,000
to go really a radical new foundation

1295
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:26,160
the constraint on the new foundation of

1296
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:28,480
course is that it has to give rise to

1297
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:30,160
space time and quantum theory in ways

1298
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:32,640
that we know and love and in particular

1299
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:40,790
the only observable

1300
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:44,480
of quantum gravity in our space in

1301
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:46,400
an asymptotically flat space time like

1302
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:48,400
ours the only observable

1303
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:52,240
that there is is scattering amplitude

1304
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:53,440
the scouting objects that's the only

1305
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:55,119
observer there are no local observables

1306
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:55,920
and

1307
00:44:02,390 --> 00:43:59,599
nemo explains that so so when we look at

1308
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:02,400
how to get the only

1309
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:05,200
observable in asymptotically flat space

1310
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:13,190
what i'm asking is that there are

1311
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:15,040
several contenders to

1312
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:16,560
fundamental theories of everything which

1313
00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:18,160
they have to be fundamental theory of

1314
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:19,119
everything

1315
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:21,280
but there there are several and i'm glad

1316
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,160
that you're pursuing

1317
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:24,160
nema's amplitude of hedron because i'm

1318
00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:25,839
also interested in how consciousness can

1319
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:27,200
give rise to some of those other

1320
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:28,800
potential theories of everything and i

1321
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,319
only have a finite amount of time

1322
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:32,079
so i'm glad that you're doing it but i'm

1323
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:34,160
curious as to why you chose that one

1324
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,400
the criteria you just said which is qft

1325
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:38,400
and general relativity have to come

1326
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:40,400
from something else and you would prefer

1327
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,520
that not

1328
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:43,200
be embedded within space time but in

1329
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:44,480
fact have some other structure that

1330
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,760
gives rise to space time

1331
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,359
but there are quite a there are quite a

1332
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,280
few for example

1333
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:51,760
i just have a list here and i'm just

1334
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:53,440
curious why you chose

1335
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,119
the amplitude of heatron other than you

1336
00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:56,480
have to start somewhere so for example

1337
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:58,000
wolfram's theory of everything

1338
00:45:00,870 --> 00:44:59,119
which starts with computation which

1339
00:45:01,829 --> 00:45:00,880
seems so similar to yours actually we

1340
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:01,839
can get to that later

1341
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:04,800
and there's pati salaam there's sl-10

1342
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:06,000
there is e8

1343
00:45:09,750 --> 00:45:08,880
as well right right right and there's

1344
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,760
strand model

1345
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:12,000
from christopher schiller there's also

1346
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:13,200
one more frightens

1347
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:15,920
frightens frighten his name is bernard

1348
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:16,720
royd friden

1349
00:45:22,950 --> 00:45:20,240
he believes that the the laws of

1350
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:22,960
physics i believe can be unified under

1351
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:24,720
fischer information so they're purely

1352
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:25,520
informational

1353
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:28,560
at their base i'm curious why nemo's

1354
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:30,000
as opposed to those that i just listed

1355
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:31,839
well there's there's a couple reasons

1356
00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:34,880
one is i'm convinced

1357
00:45:37,990 --> 00:45:37,040
by nemo's argument that scattering

1358
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:38,000
amplitudes aren't

1359
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:41,920
are the only observable and

1360
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:44,960
his is the only theory that predicts

1361
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:46,079
from first principles

1362
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:47,839
the exact scattering amplitudes and

1363
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:49,200
shows deep symmetries behind those

1364
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:50,480
scattering amplitudes

1365
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:53,520
right and that also you know

1366
00:45:58,150 --> 00:45:55,440
explains why when we look at these

1367
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:58,160
deeper symmetries outside of space time

1368
00:46:02,069 --> 00:46:00,560
um hundreds or thousands of pages of

1369
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:02,079
computation that you get

1370
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:03,599
from fineman diagrams on the scattering

1371
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:06,079
amplitudes turns into two or three terms

1372
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:10,720
so so he's got the beef he's actually

1373
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:12,160
he starts with something outside of

1374
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:14,640
space-time he gives rise to quantum

1375
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:15,920
theory unitarity

1376
00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:19,119
and locality and the the precise phi

1377
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:22,560
cube theory fight of the four theory um

1378
00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:25,680
yang mills super yang mills gravit

1379
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:28,640
he's getting one after another he's

1380
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,240
getting these scattering amplitudes

1381
00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:32,720
he's got the beef these other theories

1382
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:33,599
are you know

1383
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:34,960
saying we can do this we can do this

1384
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:37,119
he's doing it i see in other words he's

1385
00:46:40,870 --> 00:46:39,440
the closest so far

1386
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:40,880
yeah he's the closest and then there's

1387
00:46:47,910 --> 00:46:43,280
one other thing that that also

1388
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:47,920
is is making me pursue this and that is

1389
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,040
i'm starting with this theory of

1390
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:51,440
markovian kernels this this dynamical

1391
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:54,079
system of conscious agents

1392
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:56,560
now markovian kernels in general are not

1393
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,400
associated with positive geometries

1394
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,319
right and nema's saying this deeper

1395
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,640
structure is positive geometries

1396
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:04,560
but and this is what i'm working with my

1397
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:05,680
mathematician

1398
00:47:08,829 --> 00:47:08,160
uh colleague chaitan prakash and and

1399
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:08,839
others

1400
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:11,839
on i claim and we're

1401
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:14,319
and we'll see if i'm right i claim that

1402
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:16,960
the asymptotic

1403
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:20,079
and invariant behavior of markovian

1404
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:21,760
systems

1405
00:47:29,829 --> 00:47:26,480
is identified with positive geometries

1406
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:29,839
so even though the step-by-step dynamics

1407
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,119
repeat that one more time repeat that

1408
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:33,280
one more time the so so

1409
00:47:37,430 --> 00:47:35,680
when you have a markovian system right

1410
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:37,440
you have the step-by-step dynamics but

1411
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:38,000
you can also

1412
00:47:42,390 --> 00:47:40,720
ask what happens long term if you look

1413
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:42,400
at the long the broads

1414
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:45,119
okay broad view technically i have a

1415
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:51,589
i'm looking at p to the end

1416
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:53,839
which is p composed with p composed of p

1417
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:56,960
n times as n goes to infinity

1418
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,480
those kernels i claim are are

1419
00:48:05,109 --> 00:48:02,240
invariably associated with positive

1420
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:05,119
geometries without adding more structure

1421
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:08,160
that's all you need p to the n if you

1422
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:08,480
take

1423
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:10,960
kernel p p to the n will be associated

1424
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:12,240
with positive geometry as n goes to

1425
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:13,119
infinity

1426
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:14,880
okay that's interesting i gotta i gotta

1427
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:16,480
think about that

1428
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:18,720
one of your papers with your friend your

1429
00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:20,720
i love this guy for prakash

1430
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,359
right yeah i haven't had a chance to

1431
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:25,280
look at any of his papers that weren't

1432
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:27,440
co-authored with you though either way

1433
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,800
one of the papers

1434
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,880
a recent one was showing that the payoff

1435
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:33,119
functions

1436
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,720
that are homomorphic to totally ordered

1437
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:36,319
sets as well as permutation groups

1438
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,359
cyclic groups

1439
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:39,760
and one other right if you take their

1440
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,119
number

1441
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:43,680
and you divide it by the total amount

1442
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:44,960
that's admissible

1443
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:47,440
that it tends to zero and for the people

1444
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:48,960
listening

1445
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:52,160
what i've what i hear from you is saying

1446
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:53,839
that therefore the probability that we

1447
00:48:57,829 --> 00:48:54,800
see

1448
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,839
reality as it is is zero but

1449
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:59,359
i don't know if that was but but i see

1450
00:49:01,510 --> 00:49:00,800
that as a leap so i must be missing a

1451
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:01,520
step

1452
00:49:05,829 --> 00:49:04,079
because the leap is that there's a

1453
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:05,839
hidden claim

1454
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:08,079
you can go from the total size of the

1455
00:49:13,030 --> 00:49:09,280
set of admissible

1456
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:13,040
functions over the sorry

1457
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,480
under as the denominator of the total

1458
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:18,319
functions that are homomorphic to

1459
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:21,359
certain groups and certain structures

1460
00:49:24,950 --> 00:49:22,960
that's fine you can say that that goes

1461
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:24,960
to zero but then you have to say

1462
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:26,559
that there's an even probability

1463
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:27,760
distribution that we could have gotten

1464
00:49:30,470 --> 00:49:29,200
any one of them for you to say that the

1465
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:30,480
probability then

1466
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:33,119
as n goes to infinity of us seeing truth

1467
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,800
or reality as it is or homomorphic to

1468
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:35,680
the structure

1469
00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:39,040
is also zero excellent point so this is

1470
00:49:41,670 --> 00:49:40,640
a very technical point but it's an

1471
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:41,680
important one

1472
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:45,119
so so in evolutionary theory the fitness

1473
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:46,800
payoff functions

1474
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:48,000
depend on the state of the world

1475
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:49,599
whatever objective reality might be it

1476
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:50,640
depends on that

1477
00:49:54,309 --> 00:49:52,559
but it also depends on the organism its

1478
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:54,319
state its action and the competitors and

1479
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:55,040
so forth

1480
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:57,040
so it's a complicated function with a

1481
00:50:01,270 --> 00:49:59,040
very complicated domain

1482
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:01,280
including the state of the world and the

1483
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,400
range of the function

1484
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:04,880
are the payoff values you may like from

1485
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:05,520
one to n

1486
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:09,520
if they're n you know payoff values and

1487
00:50:13,510 --> 00:50:11,520
of course evolutionary theory

1488
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,520
evolutionary game theory

1489
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,319
is saying that our we're tuned our

1490
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:18,000
senses will be tuned to the payoffs

1491
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:18,559
right

1492
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:21,839
in other words organisms that

1493
00:50:26,230 --> 00:50:24,880
uh better perceive how to get high

1494
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:26,240
payoffs are the ones that are going to

1495
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:28,480
survive so it's our senses will be tuned

1496
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:29,520
to the payoffs

1497
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:30,960
so the question then the technical

1498
00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:32,960
question is what is the probability that

1499
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,280
the payoff functions

1500
00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:38,240
preserve information about the structure

1501
00:50:40,710 --> 00:50:39,839
of the world say the world has a group

1502
00:50:44,069 --> 00:50:40,720
structure

1503
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:44,079
or total order um and i ask what is the

1504
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:46,000
probability that a payoff function will

1505
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,559
will preserve that structure you know

1506
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:50,160
and we looked at two kinds of symmetry

1507
00:50:53,990 --> 00:50:51,599
groups and total orders and also

1508
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:54,000
measurable structures

1509
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:58,160
and in what we did is we used

1510
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:01,200
just we assumed a discrete set of states

1511
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:02,160
on the world

1512
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:04,800
a finite set of states and a finite set

1513
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:06,160
of payoff values so like

1514
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:09,280
you know n states in the world

1515
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:12,400
m states of the payoff values and

1516
00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:14,960
and then what we can do is literally

1517
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:16,880
using combinatorical

1518
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,240
combinatorial arguments count the number

1519
00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:22,000
of payoff functions that preserve

1520
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,040
the structure like the group structure

1521
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:26,880
and divide as you say by the total

1522
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:28,400
number which is a finite number this is

1523
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:29,280
a finite number

1524
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:32,800
of total payoff functions and

1525
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:35,440
there of course counting measure

1526
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:36,800
literally counting the number of

1527
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:37,359
functions

1528
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,599
is the canonical measure and then we

1529
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:40,880
take the limit as the

1530
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:42,880
number of states in the world and the

1531
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:44,319
number of payoff values

1532
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:47,280
goes to infinity now now someone could

1533
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:48,240
argue as

1534
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:49,680
raised the question that you just raised

1535
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:51,599
why is counting measure the measure that

1536
00:51:54,790 --> 00:51:52,319
we used

1537
00:51:56,230 --> 00:51:54,800
why should there be some other measure

1538
00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:56,240
and the answer is that

1539
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:58,800
evolutionary theory gives us no argument

1540
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:00,319
for any other measure

1541
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:03,119
so if someone wants to say we use the

1542
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:04,000
wrong measure

1543
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:05,680
then the burden of proof is on them to

1544
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:07,599
say what is the new measure

1545
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:11,119
and on principled evolutionary grounds

1546
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:12,720
what is the measure that we should use

1547
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,040
instead of counting measure and why

1548
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:18,000
and that will be a brand new addition to

1549
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:19,280
the theory of evolution of natural

1550
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:20,000
selection

1551
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,390
extra condition doesn't come from

1552
00:52:30,790 --> 00:52:28,160
evolutionary theory but instead

1553
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,800
classical physics like people like nema

1554
00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:32,480
or even michael shermer might think

1555
00:52:38,309 --> 00:52:35,520
which is saying that okay there is

1556
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:38,319
a probability distribution that favors

1557
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:40,079
certain structure preservedness for

1558
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,839
whatever reason much like we don't know

1559
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:43,280
why the fundamental laws are the way

1560
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:44,480
they are now of course you're saying

1561
00:52:47,990 --> 00:52:46,079
well i can derive the fundamental laws

1562
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:48,000
forget that because i'm going to another

1563
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,839
model them saying that the fundamental

1564
00:52:53,109 --> 00:52:51,359
laws are fundamental

1565
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:53,119
and one of them is that the probability

1566
00:52:57,589 --> 00:52:55,200
distribution of your perceptions

1567
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:57,599
will tend not necessarily tend to but

1568
00:53:02,309 --> 00:52:59,520
they're not uniform

1569
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:02,319
absolutely and and i if someone can do

1570
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:03,040
that

1571
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:06,079
so

1572
00:53:11,589 --> 00:53:09,520
think of our theorem

1573
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:11,599
as putting out that challenge come up

1574
00:53:15,750 --> 00:53:14,800
with some new principle that explains

1575
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:15,760
why

1576
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:19,119
there's a bias toward payoff functions

1577
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,720
that are homomorphic to the structure of

1578
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:22,160
reality what is

1579
00:53:25,829 --> 00:53:25,200
the conspiracy in nature that makes that

1580
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:25,839
happen

1581
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:27,920
there's i mean evolution by natural

1582
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:29,520
selection this is currently formulated

1583
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:30,880
and physics says it's currently

1584
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:31,680
formulated

1585
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:33,680
gives us no belief that there's a

1586
00:53:37,270 --> 00:53:35,119
conspiracy

1587
00:53:38,950 --> 00:53:37,280
going on to make the homomorphic

1588
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,960
functions more probable

1589
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,880
but if someone can come up with a theory

1590
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:43,119
that explains why

1591
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:45,440
nature conspires that way i'm i'll be

1592
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:46,160
the first to

1593
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:48,800
to listen very intently by the way do

1594
00:53:52,790 --> 00:53:50,160
you also have a measure

1595
00:53:53,430 --> 00:53:52,800
of structure preservedness that isn't a

1596
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:53,440
strict

1597
00:53:59,829 --> 00:53:56,720
homomorphism because if okay

1598
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:59,839
just for people listening in the way

1599
00:54:03,030 --> 00:54:00,720
that it's written

1600
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:03,040
that i saw from the paper that that you

1601
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:04,079
published recently is

1602
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:05,520
it's like you have one two three four

1603
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:07,040
five imagine that's a totally order set

1604
00:54:09,109 --> 00:54:08,400
one two three four five and that's how

1605
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:09,119
the world is

1606
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:11,119
but if someone sees the world as one two

1607
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:12,480
three four five

1608
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:14,880
four i'd be like nope no you're not

1609
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,160
seeing the world as it is

1610
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:19,040
but yet it's still similar right so you

1611
00:54:22,790 --> 00:54:20,640
can use things like the l2 norm or the l

1612
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:22,800
infinity norm to to look at how many

1613
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:25,280
so for you could say suppose that here's

1614
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:26,640
a payoff function that's

1615
00:54:29,670 --> 00:54:29,040
that's purely homomorphic we can ask how

1616
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,680
many

1617
00:54:33,910 --> 00:54:31,839
payoff functions are within a certain

1618
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:33,920
distance like an l2 distance or an l

1619
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,359
infinity distance

1620
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:37,359
of that payoff function and we can for

1621
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:38,559
each

1622
00:54:42,470 --> 00:54:41,440
distance that we look at we can ask how

1623
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:42,480
many

1624
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,920
payoff functions even though if they're

1625
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:45,839
not exactly homomorphic are that close

1626
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:47,040
to homomorphism

1627
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:48,400
and then we can look at the ratio of

1628
00:54:53,190 --> 00:54:50,240
those to all payoff and see

1629
00:54:55,190 --> 00:54:53,200
again if they go to zero or not um and

1630
00:54:58,309 --> 00:54:55,200
and so in the case of total orders

1631
00:55:02,230 --> 00:54:58,319
um it turns out that

1632
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:04,549
generous width like i think there's like

1633
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:05,280
20

1634
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:08,160
variation sure um the set of payoff

1635
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:08,720
functions

1636
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:11,920
that were within 20 variation of of any

1637
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:15,839
homomorphic function still went to zero

1638
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:20,640
in the case of um

1639
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:24,000
symmetric groups that was not true um

1640
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:26,240
if you allowed just a small window

1641
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:27,200
around

1642
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:29,920
the the homowork functions then most of

1643
00:55:32,789 --> 00:55:31,440
them

1644
00:55:36,069 --> 00:55:32,799
then it would they would have full

1645
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:36,079
weight so most functions were

1646
00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:39,119
most payoff functions were very close to

1647
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:40,720
a function which was homomorphic

1648
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,680
to um you know for automorphism of the

1649
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:45,599
symmetry

1650
00:55:49,510 --> 00:55:47,119
same thing for measurable structures in

1651
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:49,520
measurable structures

1652
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:53,280
almost every function was close to

1653
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:55,920
a payoff function that is homomorphic

1654
00:56:00,829 --> 00:55:56,400
but

1655
00:56:04,230 --> 00:56:00,839
anything

1656
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:04,240
because there are

1657
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:07,920
countless structures that

1658
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:11,200
nature might have countless

1659
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:13,839
the fact that a random function a

1660
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:15,359
randomly chosen pail function

1661
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:18,400
is close to a symmetric something that's

1662
00:56:22,390 --> 00:56:19,359
homomorphic

1663
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:22,400
a symmetry preserving function also a

1664
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:23,359
measurable function

1665
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:25,280
you could now give me thousands of

1666
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:26,400
different

1667
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:29,040
kinds of homomorphisms it's close to

1668
00:56:31,589 --> 00:56:29,680
well

1669
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:31,599
which one is natural selection choosing

1670
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:32,960
to shape you to

1671
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:35,680
there are a random function is is close

1672
00:56:38,789 --> 00:56:36,720
to all of these

1673
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,799
where is the where's the selection

1674
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:40,960
pressure to push you toward one or the

1675
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:41,440
other

1676
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,920
yeah a randomly chosen fail function you

1677
00:56:51,030 --> 00:56:49,440
could show us it's it's

1678
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:51,040
close to lots of different things that

1679
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:52,799
are homomorphic to all else

1680
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:54,240
but where's the selection pressure there

1681
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:55,599
there's no selection pressure there at

1682
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:57,440
all

1683
00:57:03,910 --> 00:57:00,559
yeah now let's one more

1684
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:03,920
critique is that gravity is not a cyclic

1685
00:57:06,870 --> 00:57:04,319
group

1686
00:57:08,069 --> 00:57:06,880
it's not a totally ordered set it's not

1687
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:08,079
a permutation group

1688
00:57:12,309 --> 00:57:10,960
it's not a measure well maybe but but

1689
00:57:13,829 --> 00:57:12,319
either way the structure of the

1690
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:13,839
fundamental physics coming from a

1691
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:14,960
different frame that is where

1692
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,000
consciousness is not fundamental

1693
00:57:21,750 --> 00:57:20,640
it doesn't follow what i've seen so far

1694
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:21,760
i think you've done totally ordered

1695
00:57:24,069 --> 00:57:23,200
permutations cyclic and measurable

1696
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,079
spaces

1697
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:25,760
right but it's not as if the fundamental

1698
00:57:31,109 --> 00:57:28,079
laws or the fundamental space of being

1699
00:57:34,549 --> 00:57:31,119
from the materialist point of view

1700
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:34,559
are those so what you're counting isn't

1701
00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:38,559
necessarily reality per se it could be

1702
00:57:40,789 --> 00:57:39,200
it could be

1703
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:40,799
but right it's not as if as far as we

1704
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:42,400
know and the lagrangian is a condition

1705
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,880
on that

1706
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,160
and it's not as if the lagrangian is a

1707
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:46,640
cyclical group so right

1708
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:52,309
fair point okay so why is so why does

1709
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:52,799
that

1710
00:57:55,910 --> 00:57:54,480
does what you've studied demonstrate

1711
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:55,920
anything about reality right

1712
00:58:01,750 --> 00:57:59,520
so yeah so i think a good

1713
00:58:03,750 --> 00:58:01,760
argument against our paper is we we've

1714
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:03,760
looked at four different structures

1715
00:58:08,309 --> 00:58:05,119
and we showed in each case that the

1716
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:08,319
probability is zero that um a randomly

1717
00:58:10,789 --> 00:58:09,359
chosen payoff function would be a

1718
00:58:13,829 --> 00:58:10,799
homomorphism

1719
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:13,839
and what we want

1720
00:58:17,990 --> 00:58:17,040
is a paper that proves that for any

1721
00:58:19,349 --> 00:58:18,000
possible structure

1722
00:58:20,630 --> 00:58:19,359
right not just the four structures that

1723
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:20,640
we looked at we don't have that theorem

1724
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:21,359
yet

1725
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,000
so someone could come along and say look

1726
00:58:29,270 --> 00:58:27,599
we have independent evidence that this

1727
00:58:30,789 --> 00:58:29,280
is the structure of the world and we can

1728
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:30,799
prove that for that structure of the

1729
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:31,359
world

1730
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:34,000
payoff almost every payoff function is a

1731
00:58:37,829 --> 00:58:36,480
homomorphism of that structure so

1732
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:37,839
we're throwing down that ghana we're

1733
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:39,520
saying for you

1734
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,240
for someone to argue that natural

1735
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:44,640
selection will of course

1736
00:58:49,589 --> 00:58:47,520
favor vertical perceptions seeing the

1737
00:58:51,910 --> 00:58:49,599
truth of the true structure of the world

1738
00:58:53,510 --> 00:58:51,920
then what you have to do you it's it's

1739
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,520
not obvious that that's the case

1740
00:58:58,150 --> 00:58:55,200
here's four counter examples we give

1741
00:59:01,589 --> 00:58:58,160
four counter examples right total orders

1742
00:59:03,589 --> 00:59:01,599
so here are four counter examples so so

1743
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:03,599
it's not just obviously true that that's

1744
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:05,119
going to happen for the structure of the

1745
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:06,640
world so you now

1746
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:08,480
to convince me that natural selection

1747
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:09,920
favors vertical perceptions you have to

1748
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:11,280
tell me exactly the structure of the

1749
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:11,680
world

1750
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:15,040
and prove that in fact the homomorphisms

1751
00:59:17,670 --> 00:59:15,359
have

1752
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:17,680
full measure so so we've thrown the

1753
00:59:20,549 --> 00:59:18,480
gauntlet down

1754
00:59:22,390 --> 00:59:20,559
all of my colleagues almost all of my

1755
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:22,400
colleagues in cognitive neuroscience who

1756
00:59:25,589 --> 00:59:23,520
study perception

1757
00:59:27,589 --> 00:59:25,599
have just assumed that of course natural

1758
00:59:29,589 --> 00:59:27,599
selection favors vertical perception

1759
00:59:31,109 --> 00:59:29,599
we gave four counter examples and we're

1760
00:59:31,990 --> 00:59:31,119
basically throwing down the gauntlet to

1761
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:32,000
our field and saying

1762
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:33,920
if you believe that you you need to come

1763
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:35,599
up with a beef where is the beef

1764
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:37,200
what is the structure of the world that

1765
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:39,119
would have full measure

1766
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:41,200
for the homomorphisms if you can't do

1767
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:42,799
that then then

1768
00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:45,520
what is the conspiracy in the laws of

1769
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:46,640
nature

1770
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:49,520
that would so in other words what we've

1771
00:59:53,270 --> 00:59:50,960
done is thrown down the gauntlet

1772
00:59:55,589 --> 00:59:53,280
in some sense we're saying hey the

1773
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:55,599
burden of proof is now on the person

1774
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:58,400
who claims that evolution is going to

1775
01:00:01,750 --> 00:59:59,680
shape vertical perceptions

1776
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:01,760
here for here are four counter examples

1777
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:03,520
give us an example of where it possibly

1778
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:04,079
could

1779
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:06,880
and good luck because here's why they're

1780
01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:07,440
not going to

1781
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:11,200
succeed to be a homomorphism

1782
01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:13,119
a function has to satisfy some strict

1783
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:14,880
equations

1784
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:17,359
most functions don't satisfy them end of

1785
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:19,599
proof

1786
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:22,079
it's just that simple good luck but but

1787
01:00:25,829 --> 01:00:23,680
so we've thrown down the gauntlet

1788
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:25,839
that the argument i just gave you is

1789
01:00:29,190 --> 01:00:26,960
going to be the heart

1790
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:29,200
of a deeper theory a deeper paper that

1791
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:30,400
will that we hope to get

1792
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:32,160
in which we just proved that no matter

1793
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,000
what yeah i'm excited about that

1794
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:36,319
right have you pursued category theory

1795
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:37,599
that's what works as far as

1796
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:38,960
like the most abstract of all the

1797
01:00:41,829 --> 01:00:40,240
mathematical theories that's where we're

1798
01:00:42,309 --> 01:00:41,839
headed exactly right category theorem

1799
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:42,319
inside

1800
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:45,680
okay cool cool i just said with category

1801
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:47,040
three right

1802
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:49,119
what about partially ordered sets not as

1803
01:00:51,270 --> 01:00:50,559
if even if you proved in the partially

1804
01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:51,280
ordered set

1805
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,160
case it's like okay that's it's yeah

1806
01:00:57,030 --> 01:00:56,160
we'd like to do partial orders and also

1807
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:57,040
topologies

1808
01:01:01,829 --> 01:01:00,000
right so those are some obvious big ones

1809
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:01,839
so if we can't get the full category

1810
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:02,799
i mean we'd like to get the full

1811
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:05,280
category theory um proof

1812
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:06,880
that just basically says you got a

1813
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:08,720
structure in the world your payoff

1814
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,079
functions won't preserve it almost

1815
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:12,160
surely and destroy that's what we want

1816
01:01:15,430 --> 01:01:14,880
we've got only four examples um and then

1817
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,440
we've got this

1818
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:17,280
high level argument that i gave you that

1819
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:19,040
to be a homomorphism you have to satisfy

1820
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:20,400
these equations so good luck

1821
01:01:23,589 --> 01:01:23,119
most won't be so that suggests to me

1822
01:01:25,910 --> 01:01:23,599
that there's

1823
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:25,920
going to be probably a very simple

1824
01:01:29,750 --> 01:01:27,280
category theoretic

1825
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:29,760
proof of this thing uh and that will

1826
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:30,880
take care of it

1827
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:32,880
or perhaps you find the one structure

1828
01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:34,960
maybe there's even one or two structures

1829
01:01:38,470 --> 01:01:36,079
a finite amount

1830
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:38,480
that's satisfied that the vertical

1831
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:39,760
perception and then from that you're

1832
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:40,559
like okay

1833
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:42,000
that's interesting that's uniqueness

1834
01:01:45,349 --> 01:01:43,760
among all the structures and therefore

1835
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,359
something special and maybe we can imply

1836
01:01:48,069 --> 01:01:47,040
the laws of physics from that either way

1837
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:48,079
would be interesting

1838
01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:50,240
oh absolutely so you know i don't care

1839
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:51,359
how it comes out

1840
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,440
um i i just want to pursue and see what

1841
01:01:56,789 --> 01:01:54,960
see what does come out right

1842
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:56,799
but what i am saying is this way too

1843
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:58,559
fast my colleagues thinking oh of course

1844
01:02:01,670 --> 01:01:59,680
natural selection

1845
01:02:03,349 --> 01:02:01,680
favors two percent oh that's way way too

1846
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:03,359
fast

1847
01:02:06,710 --> 01:02:05,200
why do they think that if they come from

1848
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:06,720
an evolutionary background

1849
01:02:09,750 --> 01:02:09,039
because evolution just is all about what

1850
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:09,760
works

1851
01:02:14,789 --> 01:02:13,839
true true in the in the materialist

1852
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:14,799
sense

1853
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:18,720
i agree and i should say um there are

1854
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:20,799
many of my colleagues and friends like

1855
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,000
steve pinker

1856
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:24,240
a good colleague and long time friend

1857
01:02:30,470 --> 01:02:27,039
who clearly understands

1858
01:02:33,670 --> 01:02:30,480
that natural selection does not

1859
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:33,680
in general favor true beliefs right and

1860
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:35,760
he's got a brilliant paper

1861
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,680
um a published um called

1862
01:02:43,029 --> 01:02:41,680
so how does the mind work it's a

1863
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:43,039
wonderful paper so if you look up steve

1864
01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:44,880
pinker so how does the mind work

1865
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:47,440
he he gives in that paper five good

1866
01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:48,640
reasons for

1867
01:02:51,990 --> 01:02:51,440
why evolution will not lead us to have

1868
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:52,000
true

1869
01:02:58,789 --> 01:02:55,280
beliefs in general um

1870
01:03:00,630 --> 01:02:58,799
and also real robert trevors has

1871
01:03:01,990 --> 01:03:00,640
argued you know brilliantly on

1872
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:02,000
evolutionary grounds that there are

1873
01:03:05,990 --> 01:03:03,599
reasons why we should be deeply

1874
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:06,000
self-deceived we the best

1875
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:08,400
liar the best the most convincing liar

1876
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,839
in social situations is the one who

1877
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:11,680
believes his own lie

1878
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:13,200
and so there are selection pressures for

1879
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:15,119
us to be deeply deceived

1880
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:19,039
now in trevor's case however he then

1881
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:20,480
even though he understands that aspect

1882
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:22,319
of evolution and

1883
01:03:25,349 --> 01:03:24,160
leading to false beliefs when it came to

1884
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:25,359
perception

1885
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:28,960
trevors still believed and wrote

1886
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:32,720
that seeing the structure of reality as

1887
01:03:35,829 --> 01:03:34,400
it is would make you more fit

1888
01:03:38,870 --> 01:03:35,839
and that's the argument that most people

1889
01:03:41,029 --> 01:03:38,880
believe it's

1890
01:03:42,069 --> 01:03:41,039
the argument goes like this those of our

1891
01:03:45,910 --> 01:03:42,079
ancestors

1892
01:03:47,750 --> 01:03:45,920
who saw reality more accurately

1893
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:47,760
had a competitive advantage over those

1894
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,400
who saw the world less accurately

1895
01:03:53,990 --> 01:03:52,000
a new competitive advantage in the you

1896
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:54,000
know the the basic

1897
01:03:58,789 --> 01:03:55,680
activities of life feeding fighting

1898
01:04:00,470 --> 01:03:58,799
fleeing and mating right and therefore

1899
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:00,480
those who saw more accurately were more

1900
01:04:04,470 --> 01:04:02,960
likely to pass on their genes

1901
01:04:06,069 --> 01:04:04,480
that code for the more accurate

1902
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:06,079
perceptions

1903
01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:07,920
and therefore we can be quite confident

1904
01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,319
that we may not see all of the truth

1905
01:04:14,470 --> 01:04:12,480
but we see those aspects of the truth

1906
01:04:16,470 --> 01:04:14,480
that we need to survive

1907
01:04:17,829 --> 01:04:16,480
and that kind of argument completely

1908
01:04:21,109 --> 01:04:17,839
persuades most of my

1909
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:21,119
my colleagues it apparently persuaded

1910
01:04:25,270 --> 01:04:23,280
trivers because he he wrote that you

1911
01:04:26,309 --> 01:04:25,280
know yeah it's more fit to see reality

1912
01:04:28,630 --> 01:04:26,319
as it is

1913
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:28,640
it didn't persuade pinker although

1914
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:30,640
pinker in the in that paper that i

1915
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:32,079
the brilliant paper that i mentioned you

1916
01:04:37,029 --> 01:04:34,079
know so how does the mind work

1917
01:04:38,829 --> 01:04:37,039
he does at the at the end of his

1918
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:38,839
discussion of the five

1919
01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:41,920
reasons uh why evolution wouldn't

1920
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:45,359
lead to to true beliefs he does make an

1921
01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:47,039
exception for everyday middle-sized

1922
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:49,119
objects

1923
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:51,359
and for the quotidian beliefs of of our

1924
01:04:53,029 --> 01:04:52,720
friends the everyday quotation beliefs

1925
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:53,039
are

1926
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:55,520
so he he he doesn't explain why he makes

1927
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:56,400
those exceptions

1928
01:04:59,430 --> 01:04:57,920
but he does make those two exceptions

1929
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:59,440
and so i'm really focusing on that

1930
01:05:02,630 --> 01:05:00,960
exception about everyday middle-sized

1931
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:02,640
objects yeah i'm saying

1932
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:04,400
that our perception of everyday

1933
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:05,680
middle-sized objects

1934
01:05:11,109 --> 01:05:08,720
is also not an example of a true belief

1935
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:11,119
it's just an example of something as you

1936
01:05:15,190 --> 01:05:12,079
said that's

1937
01:05:16,390 --> 01:05:15,200
fit enough to keep you alive uh okay

1938
01:05:18,789 --> 01:05:16,400
well this is a question

1939
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,799
more about evolutionary modeling in

1940
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:20,160
general

1941
01:05:23,109 --> 01:05:21,599
and please forgive me as i verbally

1942
01:05:24,069 --> 01:05:23,119
fumble through this because i haven't my

1943
01:05:27,109 --> 01:05:24,079
thoughts on this aren't

1944
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:27,119
fully developed are fitness payoffs as

1945
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:28,000
simple as just

1946
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:30,400
a one-dimensional case so for example

1947
01:05:33,270 --> 01:05:31,920
some issue that i an issue that i have

1948
01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:33,280
with utilitarians

1949
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:35,039
is that they will project pleasure and

1950
01:05:39,750 --> 01:05:37,280
pain down to one dimensional axis

1951
01:05:41,349 --> 01:05:39,760
which to me neglects that there are

1952
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:41,359
different kinds of pleasures or that you

1953
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:42,000
can combine

1954
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,200
pleasure and pain or that there are

1955
01:05:49,510 --> 01:05:45,280
different kinds of pain

1956
01:05:52,870 --> 01:05:51,190
this means to me that projecting onto

1957
01:05:55,270 --> 01:05:52,880
the real line is either not possible

1958
01:05:56,549 --> 01:05:55,280
or it's not trivial or it's not useful

1959
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:56,559
and i've always wondered the same

1960
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:58,799
about fitness payoffs i see something

1961
01:06:03,670 --> 01:06:01,039
similar happening so perhaps fitness

1962
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:03,680
is a complex multi-dimensional space and

1963
01:06:07,430 --> 01:06:06,240
the choice between any given two points

1964
01:06:09,349 --> 01:06:07,440
in order for you to make it you need to

1965
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:09,359
employ a metric or norm and then that

1966
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:10,640
would need to be justified

1967
01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:13,520
in other words do you have do you see

1968
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:16,799
any problems with fitness payoffs being

1969
01:06:24,390 --> 01:06:21,200
real r1 to r1 uh well

1970
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:24,400
yes i do and the the reason

1971
01:06:29,829 --> 01:06:27,760
is that the domain need not be r1

1972
01:06:31,190 --> 01:06:29,839
the domain could be as high dimensional

1973
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:31,200
as you want or the very notion of

1974
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,359
dimension may not even apply

1975
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:36,079
so but but you sticking with you know

1976
01:06:39,349 --> 01:06:37,359
the domain having

1977
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:39,359
it could be you know a 50 dimensional

1978
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:41,200
image going down to r1

1979
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:44,240
yeah so going down to r1 now

1980
01:06:50,069 --> 01:06:47,359
fitness in terms of evolution is very

1981
01:06:54,150 --> 01:06:52,230
do you have more kids in the competition

1982
01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:54,160
end of story

1983
01:06:58,870 --> 01:06:57,599
that's r1 so the but

1984
01:07:01,109 --> 01:06:58,880
what you were talking about though the

1985
01:07:04,069 --> 01:07:01,119
pain and pleasure and so forth

1986
01:07:05,510 --> 01:07:04,079
the the kinds of emotions that we may

1987
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:05,520
evolve

1988
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:06,960
to guide our behaviors in an

1989
01:07:10,789 --> 01:07:08,880
evolutionary theory could be as

1990
01:07:14,549 --> 01:07:10,799
complicated as you want

1991
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:14,559
right so so the payoff is

1992
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:17,520
reproductive success that's it that's

1993
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:20,079
the only payoff that there is

1994
01:07:23,510 --> 01:07:22,799
we we we will talk about you know payoff

1995
01:07:25,910 --> 01:07:23,520
functions as

1996
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:25,920
like points in the game but ultimately

1997
01:07:28,870 --> 01:07:26,960
the idea is that

1998
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:28,880
you you gather the number of points you

1999
01:07:31,829 --> 01:07:30,480
get in playing the game is really

2000
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:31,839
translated into how many kids do you

2001
01:07:36,549 --> 01:07:34,720
have how many genes do you pass on so

2002
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:36,559
that's why in evolutionary theory

2003
01:07:39,910 --> 01:07:39,359
the the domain can be as complicated as

2004
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:39,920
you want

2005
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:43,200
the range is r1 kids

2006
01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:44,880
what is it's not the absolute number of

2007
01:07:50,069 --> 01:07:47,520
kids it all that matters is that you

2008
01:07:51,430 --> 01:07:50,079
have more than the competition right so

2009
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:51,440
it's not like it you have to be perfect

2010
01:07:54,630 --> 01:07:52,720
or anything like that it's just a

2011
01:07:57,670 --> 01:07:54,640
satisficing solution

2012
01:08:02,230 --> 01:07:57,680
so so we have to distinguish the

2013
01:08:05,270 --> 01:08:02,240
payoff value which is

2014
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:05,280
reproductive success versus all the

2015
01:08:09,910 --> 01:08:06,720
complicated emotions

2016
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:09,920
that will guide our behaviors to get

2017
01:08:13,190 --> 01:08:11,200
enough payoff value right

2018
01:08:15,430 --> 01:08:13,200
so so so we don't want to conflate those

2019
01:08:16,950 --> 01:08:15,440
two things so evolutionary theory allows

2020
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:16,960
you to have as complicated a set of

2021
01:08:20,149 --> 01:08:17,839
emotions and

2022
01:08:21,189 --> 01:08:20,159
motivations as as you want very very

2023
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:21,199
complicated

2024
01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:24,400
the payoff value is r1

2025
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:26,159
i got it all right thanks man i

2026
01:08:29,189 --> 01:08:27,440
appreciate that we're gonna have to

2027
01:08:31,030 --> 01:08:29,199
schedule another call if you don't mind

2028
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:31,040
no you're asking um it's fun for me

2029
01:08:36,789 --> 01:08:33,359
because this is far more technical than

2030
01:08:37,510 --> 01:08:36,799
most um questions so and uh it's it's

2031
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:37,520
enjoyable

2032
01:08:41,430 --> 01:08:39,520
i i just hope that your audience will be

2033
01:08:42,870 --> 01:08:41,440
able to follow this is probably

2034
01:08:45,110 --> 01:08:42,880
some of them won't be able to but that's

2035
01:08:46,470 --> 01:08:45,120
fine i feel like most people

2036
01:08:48,149 --> 01:08:46,480
one of the reasons why i've been

2037
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:48,159
successful to the degree that i have

2038
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:51,440
is that people are watching more because

2039
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,560
i as an interviewer i'm engaged like i'm

2040
01:08:56,390 --> 01:08:55,839
asking questions that i want to know the

2041
01:08:57,590 --> 01:08:56,400
answer to

2042
01:08:59,510 --> 01:08:57,600
right rather than what i think the

2043
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:59,520
audience cares about and there's a bit

2044
01:09:02,630 --> 01:09:00,159
of a

2045
01:09:03,189 --> 01:09:02,640
facade there on manufacturing good well

2046
01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:03,199
well

2047
01:09:07,030 --> 01:09:05,520
i think for a certain audience then

2048
01:09:07,349 --> 01:09:07,040
these are the right questions absolutely

2049
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:07,359
for

2050
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:09,359
any i mean you're asking the right

2051
01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:10,640
questions for anybody that really knows

2052
01:09:14,070 --> 01:09:12,239
their math and science

2053
01:09:15,110 --> 01:09:14,080
and it must be hard knows about you

2054
01:09:15,749 --> 01:09:15,120
you're asking exactly the right

2055
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:15,759
questions

2056
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:18,000
thanks man i i appreciate that you know

2057
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,000
like it gets a bit more technical like

2058
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:21,759
like why did you why are you choosing

2059
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:23,600
the geometric algebra with the signature

2060
01:09:25,910 --> 01:09:24,239
one three

2061
01:09:27,430 --> 01:09:25,920
and then saying that implies space time

2062
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:27,440
because because that to me is

2063
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:30,480
putting extra structure on but okay well

2064
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:38,309
all right i'm gonna have to i don't

2065
01:09:42,070 --> 01:09:40,560
recall exactly where we left off but

2066
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,080
it's all right i'll put intermission and

2067
01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:44,400
people will understand if there's a

2068
01:09:49,590 --> 01:09:46,000
change in topic

2069
01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:49,600
sure okay how's it going donald

2070
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:51,839
i'm doing great how about you kurt good

2071
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:53,759
man okay you were just mentioning that

2072
01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:55,760
some of your practices of meditation are

2073
01:09:58,229 --> 01:09:56,239
intense

2074
01:09:59,990 --> 01:09:58,239
and they usually are today was

2075
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:00,000
particularly intense or

2076
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:02,560
average intensity just average but it's

2077
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:03,840
always pretty intense

2078
01:10:08,070 --> 01:10:05,760
it's um okay what do you see what

2079
01:10:12,229 --> 01:10:08,080
happens during it

2080
01:10:16,390 --> 01:10:14,229
it's going into the unknown letting go

2081
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:16,400
of all thoughts

2082
01:10:23,830 --> 01:10:20,800
and there's innate fear

2083
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:23,840
of the unknown and

2084
01:10:30,229 --> 01:10:27,360
so facing that fear and letting it go

2085
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:30,239
can be can be very very intense just so

2086
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:31,840
if you you know tried

2087
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:36,239
just sitting for 10 minutes

2088
01:10:42,390 --> 01:10:40,719
with absolutely no thoughts just being

2089
01:10:43,990 --> 01:10:42,400
in the moment you'll find that thoughts

2090
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:44,000
just come up and they

2091
01:10:49,830 --> 01:10:47,520
invade and and and

2092
01:10:51,590 --> 01:10:49,840
if you let them go and and go back into

2093
01:10:52,149 --> 01:10:51,600
quiet you'll see the thoughts just keep

2094
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:52,159
coming back

2095
01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:54,880
up and and but when you actually go into

2096
01:10:59,430 --> 01:10:56,239
a space where

2097
01:11:02,550 --> 01:10:59,440
you do let go of thoughts and it is

2098
01:11:04,790 --> 01:11:02,560
it's utter silence then

2099
01:11:07,350 --> 01:11:04,800
it starts to appear that those thoughts

2100
01:11:10,390 --> 01:11:07,360
are part of a defense mechanism

2101
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:10,400
that they're they're they're hiding

2102
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:14,960
uh behind them uh a good deal of um

2103
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:17,920
fear of the unknown and yeah we're

2104
01:11:20,390 --> 01:11:18,560
always you know

2105
01:11:22,550 --> 01:11:20,400
one thing about our species is that we

2106
01:11:24,470 --> 01:11:22,560
build models of our environment

2107
01:11:26,470 --> 01:11:24,480
and we rely on our models to protect us

2108
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:26,480
right we predict

2109
01:11:30,470 --> 01:11:29,920
you know some some creatures don't build

2110
01:11:32,149 --> 01:11:30,480
models

2111
01:11:33,430 --> 01:11:32,159
or or don't very build very

2112
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:33,440
sophisticated models of their

2113
01:11:36,790 --> 01:11:34,560
environment

2114
01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:36,800
and their strategy is like you know with

2115
01:11:42,310 --> 01:11:39,440
back some bacteria

2116
01:11:42,870 --> 01:11:42,320
you just multiply multiply multiply and

2117
01:11:44,950 --> 01:11:42,880
and

2118
01:11:46,070 --> 01:11:44,960
um that's that's how you survive you

2119
01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:46,080
know just

2120
01:11:50,229 --> 01:11:48,239
vast multiplication our species is

2121
01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:50,239
different we have

2122
01:11:56,790 --> 01:11:54,320
very few kids and um

2123
01:11:58,149 --> 01:11:56,800
we have a big cerebral cortex a frontal

2124
01:11:59,669 --> 01:11:58,159
lobe that's building models

2125
01:12:01,750 --> 01:11:59,679
of of our environment and we're

2126
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:01,760
simulating what will happen

2127
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:04,800
um and so that we you know in the

2128
01:12:07,590 --> 01:12:06,480
simulation something goes wrong we see

2129
01:12:09,189 --> 01:12:07,600
oh i shouldn't do that

2130
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:09,199
instead of sacrificing our bodies we

2131
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:10,800
sacrifice our virtual body in the

2132
01:12:14,229 --> 01:12:12,320
simulation right

2133
01:12:17,110 --> 01:12:14,239
and we learn so when you start letting

2134
01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:17,120
go of all of your thoughts

2135
01:12:21,270 --> 01:12:19,520
you're letting go of this very deeply

2136
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:21,280
ingrained

2137
01:12:24,709 --> 01:12:23,120
protective mechanism that we have of

2138
01:12:26,790 --> 01:12:24,719
building models and and

2139
01:12:28,390 --> 01:12:26,800
analyzing things and looking into the

2140
01:12:30,550 --> 01:12:28,400
future and

2141
01:12:32,070 --> 01:12:30,560
running through scenarios and so forth

2142
01:12:33,669 --> 01:12:32,080
it's one of the great strengths of our

2143
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:33,679
species

2144
01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:36,880
it's all a big difference

2145
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:38,320
do you feel like all our thoughts are

2146
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:40,880
defense mechanisms

2147
01:12:45,669 --> 01:12:43,920
well uh no but

2148
01:12:48,310 --> 01:12:45,679
it's it's pretty much like this it's

2149
01:12:51,430 --> 01:12:48,320
it's like um

2150
01:12:53,990 --> 01:12:51,440
if we look at eating

2151
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:54,000
we all have to eat and so it's a

2152
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:56,960
necessary part of life to to eat

2153
01:13:01,350 --> 01:13:00,000
but but if um

2154
01:13:02,790 --> 01:13:01,360
you decide that you know you're gonna

2155
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:02,800
you know you've had lunch and you're

2156
01:13:04,630 --> 01:13:03,360
just going to

2157
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:04,640
do something else but you find that you

2158
01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:06,480
can't stop thinking about food and you

2159
01:13:09,669 --> 01:13:08,400
keep walking over to the refrigerator

2160
01:13:11,270 --> 01:13:09,679
and you get that well that's that's

2161
01:13:12,790 --> 01:13:11,280
different that's that's now something

2162
01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:12,800
healthy that's turned into an obsession

2163
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:14,800
it's a problem right

2164
01:13:19,030 --> 01:13:16,719
and it's the same thing with thoughts

2165
01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:19,040
thoughts are great we use them to go to

2166
01:13:21,590 --> 01:13:19,520
the moon

2167
01:13:23,669 --> 01:13:21,600
we use them to build all this technology

2168
01:13:27,830 --> 01:13:23,679
we use them to cure disease

2169
01:13:29,590 --> 01:13:27,840
they're wonderful but if you find

2170
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:29,600
that when you say okay you know thought

2171
01:13:31,990 --> 01:13:31,600
is a great tool but for the next 10

2172
01:13:33,669 --> 01:13:32,000
minutes

2173
01:13:35,750 --> 01:13:33,679
i would just like to relax without any

2174
01:13:36,630 --> 01:13:35,760
thoughts and then you find you can't do

2175
01:13:39,750 --> 01:13:36,640
it

2176
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:39,760
you find that these thoughts invade and

2177
01:13:42,149 --> 01:13:40,640
that when you

2178
01:13:43,830 --> 01:13:42,159
let go of the thoughts and you just go

2179
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:43,840
into pure silence

2180
01:13:50,070 --> 01:13:47,520
that um you're afraid

2181
01:13:51,590 --> 01:13:50,080
and you retreat back into the thoughts

2182
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:51,600
well that that suggests that

2183
01:13:57,669 --> 01:13:54,400
um just like in the case of of the food

2184
01:14:01,110 --> 01:14:00,390
usage of food and it's very very

2185
01:14:02,870 --> 01:14:01,120
necessary

2186
01:14:04,229 --> 01:14:02,880
but there's a case where it becomes an

2187
01:14:05,910 --> 01:14:04,239
obsession and there's a problem

2188
01:14:08,229 --> 01:14:05,920
same thing with thought it's a great

2189
01:14:10,310 --> 01:14:08,239
tool but but when you can't let go of

2190
01:14:12,310 --> 01:14:10,320
thought for 10 minutes

2191
01:14:13,990 --> 01:14:12,320
in it and the thoughts invade and you

2192
01:14:18,070 --> 01:14:14,000
find that going into the

2193
01:14:19,189 --> 01:14:18,080
silence triggers um an innate fear

2194
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:19,199
then you know that there's something

2195
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:21,120
else that's going on and so

2196
01:14:25,430 --> 01:14:24,080
so in the meditation it's it's a matter

2197
01:14:28,790 --> 01:14:25,440
of

2198
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:28,800
for me facing the silence

2199
01:14:34,390 --> 01:14:32,480
and the fears that come up um without

2200
01:14:36,229 --> 01:14:34,400
judgment without condemnation without

2201
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:36,239
trying just being

2202
01:14:39,669 --> 01:14:37,840
being with that and just watching that

2203
01:14:41,990 --> 01:14:39,679
whole amazing process to

2204
01:14:43,590 --> 01:14:42,000
is sort of finding out wow i didn't know

2205
01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:43,600
that this was part of me i just was

2206
01:14:47,750 --> 01:14:44,719
living in my thoughts

2207
01:14:50,229 --> 01:14:47,760
i had no idea that it would be so hard

2208
01:14:51,910 --> 01:14:50,239
to let go of thoughts so it's nothing

2209
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:51,920
wrong about thoughts

2210
01:14:56,229 --> 01:14:54,640
but when they're obsessive then that's a

2211
01:14:58,390 --> 01:14:56,239
different thing

2212
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:58,400
and in the case the analogy with the

2213
01:15:02,229 --> 01:15:00,239
fridge and the food

2214
01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:02,239
it's me it's an obsession when it

2215
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:04,080
becomes maladaptive

2216
01:15:07,350 --> 01:15:05,280
is that what you're defining as

2217
01:15:08,950 --> 01:15:07,360
obsession right yeah so

2218
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:08,960
you can't your thoughts are always about

2219
01:15:12,070 --> 01:15:10,480
the refrigerator and getting the next

2220
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:12,080
food and you find yourself gaining tons

2221
01:15:14,950 --> 01:15:13,600
of tons of weight and to the point where

2222
01:15:15,750 --> 01:15:14,960
you have heart disease and things like

2223
01:15:19,669 --> 01:15:15,760
that

2224
01:15:22,709 --> 01:15:19,679
realize okay well maybe i've got

2225
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:22,719
uh you know food is necessary but but

2226
01:15:26,709 --> 01:15:24,239
too much food and too much thinking

2227
01:15:29,990 --> 01:15:26,719
about food is food is a sign of

2228
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:30,000
of something maladaptive um

2229
01:15:33,750 --> 01:15:32,159
okay you also mentioned in the case

2230
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,760
against reality that illusions are a

2231
01:15:37,030 --> 01:15:35,679
failure to guide adaptive behavior

2232
01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:37,040
i don't know if you mentioned that

2233
01:15:39,189 --> 01:15:38,880
quoting someone else or if you mention

2234
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:39,199
that

2235
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:41,600
and because you believe it and either

2236
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:43,600
way do you agree with that statement or

2237
01:15:46,790 --> 01:15:46,159
disagree yeah i i do agree with that

2238
01:15:50,070 --> 01:15:46,800
that that

2239
01:15:51,430 --> 01:15:50,080
um and it was sort of a statement that i

2240
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:51,440
was making

2241
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:53,199
in contrast to what most of my

2242
01:15:57,350 --> 01:15:55,520
colleagues in in perception science

2243
01:15:58,950 --> 01:15:57,360
would say most of my colleagues would

2244
01:16:01,270 --> 01:15:58,960
say that an elite

2245
01:16:02,870 --> 01:16:01,280
is a perception that fails to match

2246
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:02,880
reality

2247
01:16:08,390 --> 01:16:07,120
right so i see a stick in the water it

2248
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:08,400
looks bent

2249
01:16:11,750 --> 01:16:09,840
but the stick isn't bent so my

2250
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:11,760
perception fails to match the reality i

2251
01:16:13,830 --> 01:16:12,960
see something that looks bent but the

2252
01:16:18,390 --> 01:16:13,840
stick isn't bent

2253
01:16:21,510 --> 01:16:18,400
right that kind of thing and

2254
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:21,520
i'm suggesting on evolutionary grounds

2255
01:16:27,669 --> 01:16:24,719
well i'm claiming

2256
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:27,679
that the theory of evolution entails

2257
01:16:31,350 --> 01:16:29,199
mathematically

2258
01:16:32,950 --> 01:16:31,360
that the probability that any of our

2259
01:16:35,189 --> 01:16:32,960
perceptions

2260
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:35,199
in any way match the structure of

2261
01:16:40,070 --> 01:16:36,239
reality is zero

2262
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:41,669
tell us truths about the structure of

2263
01:16:44,390 --> 01:16:43,040
objective reality according to

2264
01:16:48,149 --> 01:16:44,400
evolutionary theory

2265
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,159
that's just are you aware of the various

2266
01:16:52,790 --> 01:16:50,400
notions of truth such as correspondence

2267
01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:52,800
and deflationary and pragmatic

2268
01:16:57,430 --> 01:16:55,920
sure absolutely so so most

2269
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,440
most of my colleagues are taking a

2270
01:17:03,110 --> 01:16:59,040
correspondence notion right

2271
01:17:06,229 --> 01:17:03,120
they're saying that that i see

2272
01:17:07,910 --> 01:17:06,239
a red apple

2273
01:17:09,750 --> 01:17:07,920
that's because in fact in objective

2274
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:09,760
reality there is something with that

2275
01:17:13,590 --> 01:17:11,760
that shape and that color that would

2276
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:13,600
continue to exist even if no one were

2277
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:15,520
there to perceive it and so there's

2278
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:17,120
a correspondence no one thinks it's

2279
01:17:20,709 --> 01:17:19,520
perfect correspondence we don't see

2280
01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:20,719
all of the structure of objective

2281
01:17:24,790 --> 01:17:22,719
reality but but the

2282
01:17:25,910 --> 01:17:24,800
idea of truth that i'm talking about is

2283
01:17:28,390 --> 01:17:25,920
reality

2284
01:17:28,950 --> 01:17:28,400
whatever it is has certain structures to

2285
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:28,960
it

2286
01:17:35,189 --> 01:17:32,320
topologies perhaps

2287
01:17:36,390 --> 01:17:35,199
group structures metrics whatever it

2288
01:17:38,310 --> 01:17:36,400
might be whatever the structures of

2289
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:38,320
reality are

2290
01:17:45,189 --> 01:17:42,000
and our perceptions then

2291
01:17:46,310 --> 01:17:45,199
tell us truths about those structures

2292
01:17:48,229 --> 01:17:46,320
some of the structures of our

2293
01:17:49,830 --> 01:17:48,239
perceptions are

2294
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,840
matching the structures of objective

2295
01:17:53,030 --> 01:17:51,199
reality the structure of the shape of

2296
01:17:56,229 --> 01:17:53,040
the apple that we perceive

2297
01:17:57,430 --> 01:17:56,239
is homomorphic to the structure that the

2298
01:18:01,110 --> 01:17:57,440
apple really has

2299
01:18:05,750 --> 01:18:01,120
and so forth and that's what i'm saying

2300
01:18:11,430 --> 01:18:08,550
now are you taking more of a pragmatic

2301
01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:11,440
stance on the definition of truth

2302
01:18:20,310 --> 01:18:18,950
so what's what's interesting is when i

2303
01:18:22,229 --> 01:18:20,320
talk about

2304
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:22,239
if you don't mind just for the audience

2305
01:18:25,189 --> 01:18:23,520
do you mind defining

2306
01:18:26,790 --> 01:18:25,199
the difference between correspondence

2307
01:18:28,070 --> 01:18:26,800
and then pragmatic and then where you

2308
01:18:29,669 --> 01:18:28,080
defer from pragmatic

2309
01:18:31,430 --> 01:18:29,679
as far as i can tell it sounds like

2310
01:18:33,830 --> 01:18:31,440
yours is pragmatic because it's

2311
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:33,840
about adaptive behavior so i'm curious

2312
01:18:37,910 --> 01:18:35,920
to know where the difference is

2313
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:37,920
right so in the correspondence theory of

2314
01:18:42,709 --> 01:18:39,600
truth the

2315
01:18:44,229 --> 01:18:42,719
the idea is that um there is an

2316
01:18:47,590 --> 01:18:44,239
objective reality that has

2317
01:18:51,590 --> 01:18:47,600
a definite state a definite structure

2318
01:18:53,350 --> 01:18:51,600
and to see truly to perceive truly

2319
01:18:54,709 --> 01:18:53,360
is to have the structures of your

2320
01:18:58,310 --> 01:18:54,719
perception

2321
01:18:59,590 --> 01:18:58,320
be homomorphic to at least

2322
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,600
some of the structures in objective

2323
01:19:02,550 --> 01:19:01,600
reality so to to preserve those

2324
01:19:05,590 --> 01:19:02,560
structures

2325
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:05,600
um a

2326
01:19:14,070 --> 01:19:10,080
pragmatist would would say

2327
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:14,080
that's not possible we there are no

2328
01:19:18,149 --> 01:19:16,400
true perceptions of that kind all we can

2329
01:19:21,430 --> 01:19:18,159
ask of our perceptions

2330
01:19:23,910 --> 01:19:21,440
is do they work

2331
01:19:25,510 --> 01:19:23,920
so do our concepts work do our

2332
01:19:28,470 --> 01:19:25,520
perceptions work

2333
01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:28,480
and you know and what i'm saying is that

2334
01:19:34,550 --> 01:19:30,880
from an evolutionary point of view

2335
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:34,560
the theory of evolution gives us

2336
01:19:41,350 --> 01:19:38,159
no reason to believe that our cognitive

2337
01:19:43,510 --> 01:19:41,360
or perceptual systems were shaped

2338
01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:43,520
to give us the correspondence kinds of

2339
01:19:46,149 --> 01:19:44,400
truths

2340
01:19:48,149 --> 01:19:46,159
no reason now that doesn't mean that

2341
01:19:50,630 --> 01:19:48,159
evolutionary theory is true i i

2342
01:19:52,229 --> 01:19:50,640
write i my attitude about scientific

2343
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:52,239
theories is is

2344
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:53,760
very very pragmatic in the following

2345
01:19:59,270 --> 01:19:56,159
sense i don't think that any of our

2346
01:20:01,669 --> 01:19:59,280
scientific theories are true

2347
01:20:03,110 --> 01:20:01,679
including mine but they're the best

2348
01:20:05,590 --> 01:20:03,120
tools that we have so far

2349
01:20:07,110 --> 01:20:05,600
and so what we do as scientists is to

2350
01:20:10,070 --> 01:20:07,120
very carefully study

2351
01:20:11,350 --> 01:20:10,080
these tools we study evolution by

2352
01:20:12,709 --> 01:20:11,360
natural selection we study

2353
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:12,719
general relativity we study quantum

2354
01:20:18,470 --> 01:20:14,960
field theory and we

2355
01:20:20,229 --> 01:20:18,480
see what these theories entail because

2356
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:20,239
not because they're the final answer

2357
01:20:23,350 --> 01:20:21,600
they're not i don't think any good

2358
01:20:25,110 --> 01:20:23,360
scientists think so the final answer

2359
01:20:26,470 --> 01:20:25,120
is they're they're the answers we've got

2360
01:20:29,669 --> 01:20:26,480
so far the the

2361
01:20:31,030 --> 01:20:29,679
the tools that we have so far so

2362
01:20:34,470 --> 01:20:31,040
i'm saying that evolution by natural

2363
01:20:38,070 --> 01:20:34,480
selection absolutely entails

2364
01:20:39,669 --> 01:20:38,080
that none of our perceptions correspond

2365
01:20:41,830 --> 01:20:39,679
to a true structure of an objective

2366
01:20:44,149 --> 01:20:41,840
reality

2367
01:20:45,030 --> 01:20:44,159
now does that mean that i'm a pragmatist

2368
01:20:46,870 --> 01:20:45,040
no i'm just telling you what

2369
01:20:48,550 --> 01:20:46,880
evolutionary theory entails that's all

2370
01:20:50,229 --> 01:20:48,560
that's done so i'm just being very very

2371
01:20:51,830 --> 01:20:50,239
hard-nosed this is what the theory

2372
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:51,840
entails we've got theorems about it if

2373
01:20:54,950 --> 01:20:53,360
someone wants to argue i can show

2374
01:20:56,950 --> 01:20:54,960
my theorem and they can we can argue

2375
01:20:58,709 --> 01:20:56,960
about the theorems but now once i've

2376
01:21:00,709 --> 01:20:58,719
said that about evolutionary theory i

2377
01:21:02,950 --> 01:21:00,719
can step back and say is there a deeper

2378
01:21:05,350 --> 01:21:02,960
point of view that i would like to take

2379
01:21:07,830 --> 01:21:05,360
in which i still argue for a

2380
01:21:11,270 --> 01:21:07,840
correspondence theory of truth

2381
01:21:12,470 --> 01:21:11,280
and i'm i'm absolutely open to a deeper

2382
01:21:13,750 --> 01:21:12,480
point of view

2383
01:21:15,669 --> 01:21:13,760
in which there is a correspondence

2384
01:21:17,350 --> 01:21:15,679
theory of truth whatever that deeper

2385
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:17,360
point of view is though and this is the

2386
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:19,840
interesting and tricky part about it

2387
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:28,149
it better be the case that i can explain

2388
01:21:34,870 --> 01:21:31,600
why within space and time

2389
01:21:38,390 --> 01:21:34,880
and evolution by natural selection that

2390
01:21:44,470 --> 01:21:41,430
entail only a pragmatic view

2391
01:21:46,629 --> 01:21:44,480
of perceptions not a truth view

2392
01:21:47,830 --> 01:21:46,639
so if i'm going to take a deeper point

2393
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:47,840
of view in which i say there is a

2394
01:21:52,229 --> 01:21:49,600
correspondence theory of truth

2395
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:52,239
then for that to work i have to be able

2396
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:53,040
to explain

2397
01:21:56,709 --> 01:21:55,280
why such a successful theory as

2398
01:21:58,950 --> 01:21:56,719
evolution by natural selection and is

2399
01:22:01,910 --> 01:21:58,960
spectacularly successful

2400
01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:01,920
why that theory entails a pragmatic view

2401
01:22:09,669 --> 01:22:07,990
abilities they're all pragmatic not not

2402
01:22:12,709 --> 01:22:09,679
about truth

2403
01:22:14,629 --> 01:22:12,719
and so that's so that's sort of the

2404
01:22:16,149 --> 01:22:14,639
subtlety of of this point of view a lot

2405
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:16,159
of people will will

2406
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:18,480
contradict or or you know critique what

2407
01:22:23,990 --> 01:22:20,719
i'm saying on on two counts they'll say

2408
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:24,000
first how in the world can you

2409
01:22:27,510 --> 01:22:26,080
say that we don't see the truth about

2410
01:22:29,030 --> 01:22:27,520
the world

2411
01:22:30,149 --> 01:22:29,040
do you know what the truth about reality

2412
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:30,159
is if you don't know what the truth

2413
01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:31,440
about reality is then how could you ever

2414
01:22:34,629 --> 01:22:31,920
know

2415
01:22:35,430 --> 01:22:34,639
that we don't see it okay that's the

2416
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:35,440
first argument

2417
01:22:41,430 --> 01:22:39,280
and and the reply is

2418
01:22:42,870 --> 01:22:41,440
and this is the power of mathematical

2419
01:22:43,830 --> 01:22:42,880
models like evolution by natural

2420
01:22:46,950 --> 01:22:43,840
selection

2421
01:22:48,790 --> 01:22:46,960
that mathematical model entails that

2422
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:48,800
whatever the structure of objective

2423
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:49,760
reality is

2424
01:22:54,149 --> 01:22:52,480
it we don't need to propose that we know

2425
01:22:58,070 --> 01:22:54,159
what the structure objective really is

2426
01:22:59,750 --> 01:22:58,080
whatever it is the probability is zero

2427
01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:59,760
that natural selection would shape us to

2428
01:23:04,070 --> 01:23:01,120
see it

2429
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:04,080
so the nice thing about that answer is i

2430
01:23:08,629 --> 01:23:05,199
don't need

2431
01:23:10,229 --> 01:23:08,639
to guess or know what objective reality

2432
01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:10,239
is

2433
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:12,000
to know that evolution by natural

2434
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:13,840
selection entails

2435
01:23:17,910 --> 01:23:16,080
that whatever the reality is we don't

2436
01:23:20,229 --> 01:23:17,920
see it we don't perceive it

2437
01:23:21,910 --> 01:23:20,239
okay so so that the first objection is

2438
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,920
is a very natural objection by the way

2439
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:22,960
right how could you know that we don't

2440
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:23,920
see reality because you don't know

2441
01:23:26,550 --> 01:23:24,480
reality

2442
01:23:27,830 --> 01:23:26,560
is well the answer is the mathematics is

2443
01:23:29,910 --> 01:23:27,840
so sophisticated

2444
01:23:31,669 --> 01:23:29,920
it's allowing you to say that whatever

2445
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:31,679
reality is you don't see it

2446
01:23:36,390 --> 01:23:34,800
without ever claiming to know what

2447
01:23:38,870 --> 01:23:36,400
reality is

2448
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:38,880
the the second point then is that you

2449
01:23:43,590 --> 01:23:39,440
know

2450
01:23:46,149 --> 01:23:43,600
you've just said

2451
01:23:48,149 --> 01:23:46,159
that none of our perceptions none of our

2452
01:23:49,350 --> 01:23:48,159
cognitive capacities are about the truth

2453
01:23:51,350 --> 01:23:49,360
and then you try to come up with a model

2454
01:23:53,270 --> 01:23:51,360
of objective reality right this theory

2455
01:23:56,629 --> 01:23:53,280
of conscious agents and so forth

2456
01:23:57,990 --> 01:23:56,639
well and indeed i am and and that's

2457
01:23:59,430 --> 01:23:58,000
because

2458
01:24:01,510 --> 01:23:59,440
i don't take evolution by natural

2459
01:24:03,910 --> 01:24:01,520
selection as the final word

2460
01:24:05,030 --> 01:24:03,920
is just a tool that tool entails a

2461
01:24:07,110 --> 01:24:05,040
pragmatic view

2462
01:24:08,629 --> 01:24:07,120
great that's what that tool entails i

2463
01:24:10,950 --> 01:24:08,639
would like to get a deeper view

2464
01:24:13,189 --> 01:24:10,960
in which consciousness is fundamental

2465
01:24:16,709 --> 01:24:13,199
and from that deep review

2466
01:24:18,470 --> 01:24:16,719
show how space time emerges as

2467
01:24:19,750 --> 01:24:18,480
an interface representation of this

2468
01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:19,760
deeper reality

2469
01:24:26,470 --> 01:24:23,040
and show within that interface why

2470
01:24:28,790 --> 01:24:26,480
the dynamics of this deeper realm looks

2471
01:24:29,990 --> 01:24:28,800
at least in certain cases like evolution

2472
01:24:33,189 --> 01:24:30,000
by natural selection and why

2473
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:33,199
it looks like the kind of structure that

2474
01:24:38,550 --> 01:24:34,960
we see in evolutionary theory

2475
01:24:42,229 --> 01:24:38,560
so so evolution of natural selection

2476
01:24:44,550 --> 01:24:42,239
will be a constraint on any deeper

2477
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:44,560
theory of reality that i propose

2478
01:24:48,470 --> 01:24:47,199
any deeper theory when it projects into

2479
01:24:51,270 --> 01:24:48,480
space time

2480
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:51,280
it better look like general relativity

2481
01:24:54,470 --> 01:24:52,560
quantum field theory

2482
01:24:56,229 --> 01:24:54,480
evolution of natural selection when you

2483
01:24:59,350 --> 01:24:56,239
project it into space time

2484
01:25:01,030 --> 01:24:59,360
or improvements on those theories

2485
01:25:02,390 --> 01:25:01,040
but not less than those theories you

2486
01:25:03,669 --> 01:25:02,400
know it it

2487
01:25:06,629 --> 01:25:03,679
has to explain everything those theories

2488
01:25:09,990 --> 01:25:06,639
explain and more within space time

2489
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:10,000
so so but and this is maybe subtle for

2490
01:25:12,550 --> 01:25:10,800
those who

2491
01:25:14,790 --> 01:25:12,560
who aren't scientists but this is just

2492
01:25:18,550 --> 01:25:14,800
standard i mean what i'm saying here is

2493
01:25:22,470 --> 01:25:18,560
is just the standard view of scientists

2494
01:25:24,709 --> 01:25:22,480
we take our theories not as the truth

2495
01:25:25,990 --> 01:25:24,719
just the best accounts that we have so

2496
01:25:29,669 --> 01:25:26,000
far the best tools that we have

2497
01:25:30,550 --> 01:25:29,679
so far a good theory will tell you where

2498
01:25:33,830 --> 01:25:30,560
it stops

2499
01:25:35,189 --> 01:25:33,840
where it fails but no no

2500
01:25:37,270 --> 01:25:35,199
and by the way general relativity and

2501
01:25:40,629 --> 01:25:37,280
quantum field theory

2502
01:25:44,310 --> 01:25:40,639
very very clearly tell us that they fail

2503
01:25:46,629 --> 01:25:44,320
that space time itself

2504
01:25:47,669 --> 01:25:46,639
is only an emerging concept it cannot be

2505
01:25:49,510 --> 01:25:47,679
fundamental

2506
01:25:50,950 --> 01:25:49,520
and so the very foundations of quantum

2507
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:50,960
field theory which is

2508
01:25:55,110 --> 01:25:53,520
fields on space time and the very nature

2509
01:25:58,950 --> 01:25:55,120
of general relativity which is

2510
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:00,950
can't be fundamental so those theories

2511
01:26:06,550 --> 01:26:03,760
are good enough to tell us

2512
01:26:08,550 --> 01:26:06,560
that despite their successes they're not

2513
01:26:10,790 --> 01:26:08,560
the final answer there's something

2514
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:10,800
deeper but they can't tell us

2515
01:26:14,390 --> 01:26:12,880
what that deeper thing is and that's

2516
01:26:17,430 --> 01:26:14,400
where the creativity

2517
01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:17,440
of the of the scientific endeavor kicks

2518
01:26:22,149 --> 01:26:18,080
in

2519
01:26:26,390 --> 01:26:22,159
it's up to the scientists to take a leap

2520
01:26:28,390 --> 01:26:26,400
of imagination what deeper notion

2521
01:26:30,709 --> 01:26:28,400
of reality what deeper theoretical

2522
01:26:34,870 --> 01:26:30,719
structures can we come up with

2523
01:26:37,350 --> 01:26:34,880
that would project down

2524
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:37,360
into what we call space-time and in that

2525
01:26:41,110 --> 01:26:39,120
projection they would look like general

2526
01:26:41,910 --> 01:26:41,120
relativity they would look like quantum

2527
01:26:43,910 --> 01:26:41,920
field therian

2528
01:26:45,430 --> 01:26:43,920
and evolution by natural selection

2529
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:45,440
what's the deeper dynamics in this

2530
01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:46,960
deeper realm that would project

2531
01:26:53,910 --> 01:26:51,040
into that and so there

2532
01:26:54,790 --> 01:26:53,920
our current theories can only give us

2533
01:26:57,510 --> 01:26:54,800
very very

2534
01:26:58,550 --> 01:26:57,520
loose guidance there's a lot of creative

2535
01:27:00,390 --> 01:26:58,560
imagination

2536
01:27:01,669 --> 01:27:00,400
that then is required to go into this

2537
01:27:03,430 --> 01:27:01,679
deeper realm and

2538
01:27:05,270 --> 01:27:03,440
and that's where the most creative

2539
01:27:09,910 --> 01:27:05,280
scientists of course want to go

2540
01:27:12,870 --> 01:27:09,920
it's it's great fun when we find a hole

2541
01:27:13,750 --> 01:27:12,880
in our current theories and get the

2542
01:27:16,310 --> 01:27:13,760
chance

2543
01:27:18,390 --> 01:27:16,320
to discover something new and so that's

2544
01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:18,400
that's the fun part of it now when it

2545
01:27:22,070 --> 01:27:20,000
comes to space and time i've heard you

2546
01:27:24,790 --> 01:27:22,080
describe it as a data compression tool

2547
01:27:27,430 --> 01:27:24,800
for us conscious agents

2548
01:27:28,950 --> 01:27:27,440
why do we need as conscious agents data

2549
01:27:31,990 --> 01:27:28,960
compression why is there a limit to how

2550
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:32,000
much we can process

2551
01:27:35,590 --> 01:27:33,360
well that's going to be a very

2552
01:27:38,310 --> 01:27:35,600
interesting

2553
01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:38,320
thing for this deeper theory to to try

2554
01:27:42,629 --> 01:27:39,280
to explain

2555
01:27:46,070 --> 01:27:42,639
why is there this limit it

2556
01:27:50,550 --> 01:27:46,080
it may be that all conscious

2557
01:27:57,030 --> 01:27:51,990
and that's one theory that i'm playing

2558
01:28:00,950 --> 01:27:59,430
the realm of conscious agents may be

2559
01:28:03,750 --> 01:28:00,960
such that

2560
01:28:06,070 --> 01:28:03,760
there is no bound to the complexity that

2561
01:28:08,870 --> 01:28:06,080
a conscious agent can have

2562
01:28:11,669 --> 01:28:08,880
but it's but it's always finite so it's

2563
01:28:13,669 --> 01:28:11,679
as big as you wish but but always finite

2564
01:28:15,110 --> 01:28:13,679
and in which case no matter how complex

2565
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:15,120
you are compared

2566
01:28:19,669 --> 01:28:18,000
to all the possible complexity your

2567
01:28:20,870 --> 01:28:19,679
measure zero your probability zero right

2568
01:28:24,709 --> 01:28:20,880
you have

2569
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:24,719
so so in that sense

2570
01:28:29,189 --> 01:28:28,639
if but but there may be a really really

2571
01:28:35,110 --> 01:28:29,199
deep

2572
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:39,110
may be taking these

2573
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:41,360
dividing itself into sort of

2574
01:28:44,550 --> 01:28:43,120
subconsciousnesses which are sort of

2575
01:28:46,629 --> 01:28:44,560
different perspectives

2576
01:28:48,629 --> 01:28:46,639
that are looking at the whole and these

2577
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:48,639
different perspectives would necessarily

2578
01:28:52,229 --> 01:28:50,400
then have limited

2579
01:28:54,229 --> 01:28:52,239
information about the whole they'll only

2580
01:28:55,189 --> 01:28:54,239
be able to see through an interface but

2581
01:28:57,590 --> 01:28:55,199
necessarily

2582
01:28:58,950 --> 01:28:57,600
right this is it's sort of the kind of

2583
01:29:02,870 --> 01:28:58,960
thing like right

2584
01:29:05,110 --> 01:29:02,880
in the twitterverse i can

2585
01:29:06,390 --> 01:29:05,120
it's a there's tens of millions of users

2586
01:29:07,990 --> 01:29:06,400
billions of tweets

2587
01:29:09,990 --> 01:29:08,000
i could talk with one or two twitter

2588
01:29:12,470 --> 01:29:10,000
users extensively and

2589
01:29:13,990 --> 01:29:12,480
follow all of their tweets maybe if i

2590
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:14,000
really into it maybe

2591
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:16,000
a hundred of them and follow all their

2592
01:29:20,709 --> 01:29:17,840
tweets but there's

2593
01:29:22,149 --> 01:29:20,719
10 million or more twitter users so i ca

2594
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:22,159
there's no way

2595
01:29:25,830 --> 01:29:24,719
there's absolutely no way so if i want

2596
01:29:29,270 --> 01:29:25,840
to get a

2597
01:29:30,709 --> 01:29:29,280
feel for what's happening in general in

2598
01:29:31,990 --> 01:29:30,719
the twitterverse

2599
01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:32,000
i'm going to need to have some kind of

2600
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:34,080
data compression tool some visualization

2601
01:29:36,550 --> 01:29:34,560
tool

2602
01:29:37,990 --> 01:29:36,560
right we see this all the time whenever

2603
01:29:41,350 --> 01:29:38,000
whenever there's big

2604
01:29:43,110 --> 01:29:41,360
social media data we use visualization

2605
01:29:45,669 --> 01:29:43,120
tools to see what's going on

2606
01:29:48,149 --> 01:29:45,679
and that's what i think space time is

2607
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:48,159
space time

2608
01:29:53,189 --> 01:29:50,480
is our headset we've mistaken the

2609
01:29:55,590 --> 01:29:53,199
headset for reality we've assumed that

2610
01:29:57,030 --> 01:29:55,600
space and time are fundamental or space

2611
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:57,040
time is fundamental

2612
01:30:00,550 --> 01:29:58,400
we've assumed that that's subjective

2613
01:30:02,950 --> 01:30:00,560
reality and it's just a rookie mistake

2614
01:30:03,830 --> 01:30:02,960
it's our headset it's our visualization

2615
01:30:06,790 --> 01:30:03,840
tool

2616
01:30:08,790 --> 01:30:06,800
and what what's behind it is this vast

2617
01:30:11,669 --> 01:30:08,800
network of other conscious agents

2618
01:30:13,590 --> 01:30:11,679
now it's one thing for me to say this it

2619
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:13,600
sounds you know

2620
01:30:18,149 --> 01:30:16,480
interesting but where's the beef and

2621
01:30:19,270 --> 01:30:18,159
where the beef is going to have to come

2622
01:30:21,990 --> 01:30:19,280
from

2623
01:30:23,830 --> 01:30:22,000
is a precise mathematical description of

2624
01:30:26,709 --> 01:30:23,840
the dynamics of conscious agents

2625
01:30:27,750 --> 01:30:26,719
so it's for those interested in the math

2626
01:30:31,430 --> 01:30:27,760
it's

2627
01:30:32,950 --> 01:30:31,440
theory

2628
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:32,960
so the kind of stuff that you use when

2629
01:30:37,990 --> 01:30:34,800
you're studying like the internet and

2630
01:30:39,189 --> 01:30:38,000
um the dynamics of information flow on

2631
01:30:40,629 --> 01:30:39,199
the internet and so forth there's that

2632
01:30:43,669 --> 01:30:40,639
kind of mathematics

2633
01:30:44,870 --> 01:30:43,679
so it's it's it's proposing a specific

2634
01:30:48,070 --> 01:30:44,880
mathematical dynamics

2635
01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:48,080
on a network of conscious agents

2636
01:30:52,149 --> 01:30:50,480
then the way i think it'll go is that

2637
01:30:55,270 --> 01:30:52,159
the asymptotic behavior

2638
01:30:57,510 --> 01:30:55,280
of that dynamics which is that

2639
01:30:58,470 --> 01:30:57,520
that just means you can't see every

2640
01:30:59,750 --> 01:30:58,480
single tweet

2641
01:31:01,669 --> 01:30:59,760
you can't interact with every single

2642
01:31:02,550 --> 01:31:01,679
user but you can see the long-term

2643
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:02,560
trends

2644
01:31:05,910 --> 01:31:04,000
what are the things that are trending

2645
01:31:07,430 --> 01:31:05,920
long-term what are the big

2646
01:31:09,110 --> 01:31:07,440
picture kinds of that's what i mean by

2647
01:31:11,030 --> 01:31:09,120
the asymptotics what what happens

2648
01:31:12,629 --> 01:31:11,040
if you look at it over a long period of

2649
01:31:14,310 --> 01:31:12,639
time what are the like the patterns over

2650
01:31:18,790 --> 01:31:14,320
a long period of time

2651
01:31:21,990 --> 01:31:18,800
and i think that that is

2652
01:31:24,310 --> 01:31:22,000
what is behind space time and and in

2653
01:31:25,750 --> 01:31:24,320
modern physics what they're seeing what

2654
01:31:28,830 --> 01:31:25,760
with the physicists right now

2655
01:31:30,310 --> 01:31:28,840
when they try to get structures beyond

2656
01:31:31,510 --> 01:31:30,320
space-time

2657
01:31:33,430 --> 01:31:31,520
you know they're trying to take the next

2658
01:31:35,030 --> 01:31:33,440
step beyond space-time

2659
01:31:37,510 --> 01:31:35,040
they they are seeing some interesting

2660
01:31:40,070 --> 01:31:37,520
structures called positive geometries

2661
01:31:42,390 --> 01:31:40,080
amplitude sociohedra and so forth these

2662
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:42,400
positive geometries

2663
01:31:46,550 --> 01:31:44,320
i want the direction i'm going is to

2664
01:31:48,870 --> 01:31:46,560
show that those positive geometry

2665
01:31:51,830 --> 01:31:48,880
structures that they're coming up with

2666
01:31:53,510 --> 01:31:51,840
are representations of the asymptotic

2667
01:31:55,990 --> 01:31:53,520
behavior

2668
01:31:57,110 --> 01:31:56,000
of this dynamics of conscious agents and

2669
01:31:58,790 --> 01:31:57,120
if i can do that

2670
01:32:00,470 --> 01:31:58,800
then i will be able to use their work

2671
01:32:01,590 --> 01:32:00,480
and pull the thread all the way from a

2672
01:32:02,629 --> 01:32:01,600
theory of conscious agents and their

2673
01:32:05,350 --> 01:32:02,639
dynamics

2674
01:32:06,950 --> 01:32:05,360
through the asymptotics of that into

2675
01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:06,960
these positive geometries that they

2676
01:32:09,350 --> 01:32:07,760
found

2677
01:32:12,470 --> 01:32:09,360
and then they tell you how to go from

2678
01:32:14,709 --> 01:32:12,480
that to the actual

2679
01:32:16,550 --> 01:32:14,719
prediction of scattering events like at

2680
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:16,560
the large hadron collider

2681
01:32:20,790 --> 01:32:18,719
so that's my goal the beef will be if i

2682
01:32:22,470 --> 01:32:20,800
can start with a theory of consciousness

2683
01:32:23,910 --> 01:32:22,480
look at it at its asymptotics and show

2684
01:32:25,430 --> 01:32:23,920
that the asymptotics of that theory

2685
01:32:26,709 --> 01:32:25,440
consciousness

2686
01:32:28,550 --> 01:32:26,719
through this route that the physicists

2687
01:32:29,750 --> 01:32:28,560
have found already leads to the

2688
01:32:31,430 --> 01:32:29,760
scattering amplitudes

2689
01:32:33,270 --> 01:32:31,440
that we can then test at the at the

2690
01:32:34,790 --> 01:32:33,280
large hadron collider that's where we

2691
01:32:36,390 --> 01:32:34,800
have the beef

2692
01:32:38,149 --> 01:32:36,400
space and time aren't fundamental in

2693
01:32:41,430 --> 01:32:38,159
your theory

2694
01:32:42,870 --> 01:32:41,440
is cause it's causality fundamental um

2695
01:32:44,790 --> 01:32:42,880
certainly not causality in space and

2696
01:32:46,229 --> 01:32:44,800
time right so when we think about

2697
01:32:49,030 --> 01:32:46,239
causality

2698
01:32:50,470 --> 01:32:49,040
we think about for example the um the

2699
01:32:53,110 --> 01:32:50,480
cue ball hitting the eight ball and

2700
01:32:54,790 --> 01:32:53,120
making a crane into the corner pocket

2701
01:32:57,669 --> 01:32:54,800
and or we think about

2702
01:33:00,550 --> 01:32:57,679
uh neurons in the brain causing our

2703
01:33:05,110 --> 01:33:00,560
behaviors and causing our experiences

2704
01:33:08,550 --> 01:33:05,120
and and so i flat out deny

2705
01:33:12,390 --> 01:33:08,560
that anything in space-time

2706
01:33:14,229 --> 01:33:12,400
has any causal powers can you help me

2707
01:33:16,149 --> 01:33:14,239
something i'm working on is a definition

2708
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:16,159
of causality it turns out it's extremely

2709
01:33:23,830 --> 01:33:22,390
it's intuitive the closer you look the

2710
01:33:25,990 --> 01:33:23,840
more slippery it gets

2711
01:33:27,669 --> 01:33:26,000
how are you defining causality in your

2712
01:33:29,990 --> 01:33:27,679
theory

2713
01:33:31,110 --> 01:33:30,000
so you're absolutely right in fact there

2714
01:33:33,430 --> 01:33:31,120
are there's the

2715
01:33:34,149 --> 01:33:33,440
what there's there's a handbook of

2716
01:33:36,310 --> 01:33:34,159
causality

2717
01:33:37,830 --> 01:33:36,320
a bunch of philosophers and and others

2718
01:33:39,189 --> 01:33:37,840
talking about causality of the oxford

2719
01:33:40,390 --> 01:33:39,199
handbook of causality or something like

2720
01:33:44,629 --> 01:33:40,400
that

2721
01:33:48,149 --> 01:33:44,639
if you read through it there are

2722
01:33:51,830 --> 01:33:48,159
many many different views on causality

2723
01:33:54,390 --> 01:33:51,840
and there is no agreed upon

2724
01:33:56,790 --> 01:33:54,400
universal definition of causality

2725
01:33:59,990 --> 01:33:56,800
mathematically

2726
01:34:02,709 --> 01:34:00,000
in computer science when we

2727
01:34:04,229 --> 01:34:02,719
when we talk about causality some of the

2728
01:34:05,990 --> 01:34:04,239
best work there

2729
01:34:08,390 --> 01:34:06,000
is based on the notion of directed

2730
01:34:11,430 --> 01:34:08,400
acyclic graphs

2731
01:34:14,709 --> 01:34:11,440
judea pearl professor at ucla

2732
01:34:18,629 --> 01:34:14,719
and his students and many collaborators

2733
01:34:20,470 --> 01:34:18,639
have been modeling causality

2734
01:34:22,870 --> 01:34:20,480
whatever it is as directed acyclic

2735
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:22,880
graphs but i think that even judea pearl

2736
01:34:26,390 --> 01:34:24,800
um doesn't hazard definition of

2737
01:34:29,510 --> 01:34:26,400
causality right

2738
01:34:31,590 --> 01:34:29,520
he it's it's much like how do you define

2739
01:34:34,950 --> 01:34:31,600
if you're in geometry how do you define

2740
01:34:36,470 --> 01:34:34,960
a point well it's it's sort of a

2741
01:34:39,669 --> 01:34:36,480
primitive concept you

2742
01:34:41,990 --> 01:34:39,679
you but two of them make a line right

2743
01:34:42,950 --> 01:34:42,000
two of them define a line and so you

2744
01:34:45,109 --> 01:34:42,960
start

2745
01:34:47,270 --> 01:34:45,119
so for for many scientific theories the

2746
01:34:50,070 --> 01:34:47,280
notion of causality

2747
01:34:51,030 --> 01:34:50,080
is a primitive it's a place where

2748
01:34:54,070 --> 01:34:51,040
explanation

2749
01:34:57,189 --> 01:34:54,080
stops and

2750
01:34:59,590 --> 01:34:57,199
and that's not a unique problem to the

2751
01:35:03,590 --> 01:34:59,600
notion of causality

2752
01:35:07,189 --> 01:35:06,310
must stop at some point it can't explain

2753
01:35:09,830 --> 01:35:07,199
everything

2754
01:35:11,430 --> 01:35:09,840
there will be some primitive notions and

2755
01:35:13,270 --> 01:35:11,440
this is unavoidable

2756
01:35:14,629 --> 01:35:13,280
so there are no scientific theories that

2757
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:14,639
explain everything

2758
01:35:18,310 --> 01:35:17,280
every scientific theory will have some

2759
01:35:20,550 --> 01:35:18,320
handful

2760
01:35:22,149 --> 01:35:20,560
hopefully as small as possible of

2761
01:35:24,709 --> 01:35:22,159
primitive notions

2762
01:35:26,950 --> 01:35:24,719
that where you just say you know like if

2763
01:35:28,390 --> 01:35:26,960
you have a little kid that says but what

2764
01:35:30,070 --> 01:35:28,400
why is that you tell them and say but

2765
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:30,080
but how come that and then so

2766
01:35:33,990 --> 01:35:32,080
at some point you just say it it just is

2767
01:35:36,310 --> 01:35:34,000
right your theory just stops and says

2768
01:35:38,629 --> 01:35:36,320
that's just the way it is and so so for

2769
01:35:39,750 --> 01:35:38,639
causality

2770
01:35:42,229 --> 01:35:39,760
we you know we tend to think of

2771
01:35:45,669 --> 01:35:42,239
causality well

2772
01:35:47,830 --> 01:35:45,679
if i can intervene in

2773
01:35:48,790 --> 01:35:47,840
some system and then change things

2774
01:35:50,870 --> 01:35:48,800
change

2775
01:35:52,950 --> 01:35:50,880
as a result of my intervention that's a

2776
01:35:56,390 --> 01:35:52,960
proof of causality

2777
01:36:00,470 --> 01:35:56,400
but that turns out not to work um

2778
01:36:02,550 --> 01:36:00,480
you can get counter examples to that um

2779
01:36:04,229 --> 01:36:02,560
what about causes always perceive their

2780
01:36:07,430 --> 01:36:04,239
facts well

2781
01:36:09,350 --> 01:36:07,440
you can have you can

2782
01:36:11,590 --> 01:36:09,360
set up thought experiments where that

2783
01:36:13,109 --> 01:36:11,600
where the the effects

2784
01:36:15,430 --> 01:36:13,119
um don't perceive the causes but where

2785
01:36:16,709 --> 01:36:15,440
there's yes right so that's the reason

2786
01:36:18,390 --> 01:36:16,719
why

2787
01:36:20,870 --> 01:36:18,400
i forget the person's name pearl you

2788
01:36:23,189 --> 01:36:20,880
mentioned jay pearl right

2789
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:23,199
that's why he said acyclic because he

2790
01:36:26,470 --> 01:36:24,080
doesn't want

2791
01:36:28,470 --> 01:36:26,480
the causes to proceed effect or because

2792
01:36:31,510 --> 01:36:28,480
he doesn't want it to

2793
01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:31,520
to get to some place where you cause

2794
01:36:34,709 --> 01:36:32,800
yourself

2795
01:36:36,229 --> 01:36:34,719
right yeah once once you get cycles it

2796
01:36:37,109 --> 01:36:36,239
gets pretty complicated and the notion

2797
01:36:39,270 --> 01:36:37,119
of causality

2798
01:36:40,950 --> 01:36:39,280
would start to slip through your fingers

2799
01:36:43,750 --> 01:36:40,960
things where you were in everyday life

2800
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:43,760
you see cycles

2801
01:36:46,950 --> 01:36:46,080
you can you can unwrap them as an ever

2802
01:36:49,590 --> 01:36:46,960
extending

2803
01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:49,600
directed acyclic graph so you can just

2804
01:36:52,870 --> 01:36:51,119
take the time parameter instead of

2805
01:36:54,550 --> 01:36:52,880
cycling back you go to new states

2806
01:36:57,830 --> 01:36:54,560
downward so

2807
01:36:58,870 --> 01:36:57,840
ways to to avoid cycles even in what we

2808
01:37:01,910 --> 01:36:58,880
in everyday life

2809
01:37:02,790 --> 01:37:01,920
think of as as cyclic behavior so i

2810
01:37:05,990 --> 01:37:02,800
would say that

2811
01:37:10,629 --> 01:37:06,000
causality you're you're right to pick

2812
01:37:12,070 --> 01:37:10,639
on it it's the the best and brightest

2813
01:37:13,830 --> 01:37:12,080
when i look at i think it's the oxford

2814
01:37:16,550 --> 01:37:13,840
handbook of causality

2815
01:37:17,270 --> 01:37:16,560
wonderful articles brilliant thinkers

2816
01:37:20,310 --> 01:37:17,280
and they

2817
01:37:22,790 --> 01:37:20,320
disagree they don't know so there's no

2818
01:37:24,550 --> 01:37:22,800
received opinion about what causality is

2819
01:37:32,830 --> 01:37:24,560
and is there one that you feel like

2820
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:36,310
um

2821
01:37:42,550 --> 01:37:39,350
i'll tell you why i asked all these

2822
01:37:43,830 --> 01:37:42,560
yeah all the ones i saw there um i think

2823
01:37:44,950 --> 01:37:43,840
that they all were were touching

2824
01:37:47,910 --> 01:37:44,960
different parts of

2825
01:37:48,709 --> 01:37:47,920
the elephant in interesting ways right

2826
01:37:52,070 --> 01:37:48,719
but but that

2827
01:37:54,550 --> 01:37:52,080
um it may be that ultimately causality

2828
01:37:57,750 --> 01:37:54,560
is one of these primitives like points

2829
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:01,750
okay when you say that reality is

2830
01:38:08,070 --> 01:38:04,639
innately objective

2831
01:38:09,430 --> 01:38:08,080
so there's the w the world state x g

2832
01:38:11,109 --> 01:38:09,440
experience so that's like the conscious

2833
01:38:13,430 --> 01:38:11,119
agent then

2834
01:38:14,470 --> 01:38:13,440
i assume what you're saying is objective

2835
01:38:18,550 --> 01:38:14,480
reality is the w

2836
01:38:20,950 --> 01:38:18,560
the world state and the agents right

2837
01:38:21,590 --> 01:38:20,960
then later you do this i love this you

2838
01:38:23,590 --> 01:38:21,600
then take

2839
01:38:26,070 --> 01:38:23,600
well w could also be composed of

2840
01:38:28,229 --> 01:38:26,080
different conscious agents

2841
01:38:29,990 --> 01:38:28,239
and then we can have a string of them

2842
01:38:32,629 --> 01:38:30,000
why are you calling that

2843
01:38:33,590 --> 01:38:32,639
objective to me and this just might be

2844
01:38:35,350 --> 01:38:33,600
semantics

2845
01:38:37,430 --> 01:38:35,360
i hear that as subjective given that

2846
01:38:39,590 --> 01:38:37,440
it's a conscious agent

2847
01:38:41,030 --> 01:38:39,600
that is it's a subject all the way

2848
01:38:42,709 --> 01:38:41,040
through the chain

2849
01:38:44,550 --> 01:38:42,719
right if it was just if you were like

2850
01:38:45,590 --> 01:38:44,560
hey there's one world or there's a few

2851
01:38:47,270 --> 01:38:45,600
but w

2852
01:38:48,870 --> 01:38:47,280
is not dependent on other causal

2853
01:38:50,550 --> 01:38:48,880
necessary conscious agents

2854
01:38:52,149 --> 01:38:50,560
then i could see using the term

2855
01:38:52,709 --> 01:38:52,159
objective why is it that you still use

2856
01:38:56,310 --> 01:38:52,719
the term

2857
01:39:00,950 --> 01:38:56,320
objective when we can extend the graph

2858
01:39:03,990 --> 01:39:00,960
to just conscious agents right so

2859
01:39:07,830 --> 01:39:04,000
so the the proposal is

2860
01:39:11,270 --> 01:39:07,840
that what the universe is

2861
01:39:13,590 --> 01:39:11,280
fundamentally is a vast network of

2862
01:39:15,270 --> 01:39:13,600
interacting conscious agents

2863
01:39:17,350 --> 01:39:15,280
so when i say that that's the objective

2864
01:39:21,189 --> 01:39:17,360
truth of course each agent is a subject

2865
01:39:24,310 --> 01:39:21,199
right each agent is a conscious entity

2866
01:39:27,430 --> 01:39:24,320
but what i'm saying is that even

2867
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:27,440
when i'm asleep the network

2868
01:39:32,790 --> 01:39:30,960
still exists that's all so even if i'm

2869
01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:32,800
sound asleep and i'm not having any

2870
01:39:35,189 --> 01:39:34,400
conscious experiences or anything like

2871
01:39:38,229 --> 01:39:35,199
that

2872
01:39:41,109 --> 01:39:38,239
right now

2873
01:39:42,229 --> 01:39:41,119
the that that network of conscious

2874
01:39:45,109 --> 01:39:42,239
agents

2875
01:39:47,510 --> 01:39:45,119
is just like a twitter user right um

2876
01:39:49,750 --> 01:39:47,520
whether or not i happen to be

2877
01:39:51,030 --> 01:39:49,760
reading tweets or sending tweets the

2878
01:39:53,030 --> 01:39:51,040
twitterverse exists

2879
01:39:55,350 --> 01:39:53,040
it's out there even though really the

2880
01:39:58,350 --> 01:39:55,360
twitter verse is just a bunch of other

2881
01:39:59,510 --> 01:39:58,360
subjects people people tweeting

2882
01:40:03,030 --> 01:39:59,520
intersubjectivity

2883
01:40:05,830 --> 01:40:03,040
implies the objectivity that's right

2884
01:40:07,109 --> 01:40:05,840
and and and specifically the fact that

2885
01:40:11,990 --> 01:40:07,119
it's

2886
01:40:13,669 --> 01:40:12,000
it still exists even if i

2887
01:40:15,669 --> 01:40:13,679
don't perceive it okay we're going to

2888
01:40:17,189 --> 01:40:15,679
get philosophical there

2889
01:40:19,350 --> 01:40:17,199
i was going to get to this later but now

2890
01:40:21,270 --> 01:40:19,360
that we're here how

2891
01:40:23,350 --> 01:40:21,280
what's the i in this conscious agent

2892
01:40:25,990 --> 01:40:23,360
model right

2893
01:40:27,990 --> 01:40:26,000
so in the conscious agent model the

2894
01:40:31,430 --> 01:40:28,000
notion of a self

2895
01:40:33,270 --> 01:40:31,440
is not fundamental so conscious agents

2896
01:40:35,189 --> 01:40:33,280
are just these mathematical structures

2897
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:35,199
that have experiences

2898
01:40:39,430 --> 01:40:38,320
i'll make decisions and then act on

2899
01:40:41,350 --> 01:40:39,440
those decisions

2900
01:40:42,550 --> 01:40:41,360
but the notion of a self is not

2901
01:40:45,430 --> 01:40:42,560
fundamental

2902
01:40:46,950 --> 01:40:45,440
a self is something that a network of

2903
01:40:51,590 --> 01:40:46,960
conscious agents can build

2904
01:40:53,590 --> 01:40:51,600
so it can be a an experience

2905
01:40:56,070 --> 01:40:53,600
dead okay i might stop you every once in

2906
01:40:57,830 --> 01:40:56,080
a while to clarify just for myself

2907
01:40:59,189 --> 01:40:57,840
you're saying that a self is a

2908
01:41:01,510 --> 01:40:59,199
conglomeration of

2909
01:41:04,149 --> 01:41:01,520
conscious agents it's a data structure

2910
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:04,159
that they build

2911
01:41:07,669 --> 01:41:05,920
does that mean that right now i'm

2912
01:41:10,149 --> 01:41:07,679
talking to donald

2913
01:41:11,270 --> 01:41:10,159
you're not one conscious agent i'm

2914
01:41:15,270 --> 01:41:11,280
speaking to

2915
01:41:18,070 --> 01:41:15,280
quite a few uh probably a countless

2916
01:41:19,510 --> 01:41:18,080
collection of countries uncountable well

2917
01:41:21,430 --> 01:41:19,520
i don't know if it's uncountable but

2918
01:41:23,430 --> 01:41:21,440
i certainly couldn't count them but as

2919
01:41:24,470 --> 01:41:23,440
you know uncountable as a technical term

2920
01:41:25,669 --> 01:41:24,480
in mathematics so i just want to make

2921
01:41:27,830 --> 01:41:25,679
sure people

2922
01:41:29,350 --> 01:41:27,840
who know that i'm not saying it is

2923
01:41:31,270 --> 01:41:29,360
uncountable in that sense it may be but

2924
01:41:32,790 --> 01:41:31,280
i'm not claiming that um

2925
01:41:35,189 --> 01:41:32,800
but it's it's certainly not countable by

2926
01:41:38,790 --> 01:41:35,199
me so the idea is that you'll

2927
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:38,800
for example we know that

2928
01:41:41,830 --> 01:41:40,400
there are at least two different

2929
01:41:45,030 --> 01:41:41,840
subjects

2930
01:41:46,950 --> 01:41:45,040
in in me we can see that if i take a

2931
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:46,960
knife and cut the corpus callosum

2932
01:41:50,470 --> 01:41:49,440
which which um i have a left hemisphere

2933
01:41:52,310 --> 01:41:50,480
in the right hemisphere

2934
01:41:54,149 --> 01:41:52,320
you do too there's a band of fibers

2935
01:41:57,270 --> 01:41:54,159
called the core hopefully i do

2936
01:41:59,750 --> 01:41:57,280
yeah and sometimes i wonder

2937
01:42:01,270 --> 01:41:59,760
where's there 225 million fibers and if

2938
01:42:02,390 --> 01:42:01,280
you cut those fibers it turns out you

2939
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:02,400
can actually

2940
01:42:07,270 --> 01:42:05,520
get clear evidence in a few people that

2941
01:42:10,310 --> 01:42:07,280
this has been done with

2942
01:42:11,350 --> 01:42:10,320
that there's a different personality in

2943
01:42:11,990 --> 01:42:11,360
the left hemisphere than the right

2944
01:42:17,270 --> 01:42:12,000
hemisphere

2945
01:42:19,430 --> 01:42:17,280
an atheist

2946
01:42:21,189 --> 01:42:19,440
the left hemisphere wanted to be have a

2947
01:42:22,709 --> 01:42:21,199
desk job the right hemisphere wanted to

2948
01:42:24,950 --> 01:42:22,719
be a race car driver

2949
01:42:26,550 --> 01:42:24,960
and they can even fight the the left

2950
01:42:27,910 --> 01:42:26,560
hemisphere controls the right hand

2951
01:42:30,229 --> 01:42:27,920
the right hemisphere controls the left

2952
01:42:30,950 --> 01:42:30,239
hand and the they can fight the left

2953
01:42:32,950 --> 01:42:30,960
hand can be

2954
01:42:34,470 --> 01:42:32,960
fighting what the right hand is doing

2955
01:42:36,550 --> 01:42:34,480
you know trying to cook

2956
01:42:37,669 --> 01:42:36,560
the the left hand might destroy an

2957
01:42:39,189 --> 01:42:37,679
omelet that you're making

2958
01:42:40,550 --> 01:42:39,199
you try to put on some clothes the left

2959
01:42:42,390 --> 01:42:40,560
hand might be taking off the clothes the

2960
01:42:45,350 --> 01:42:42,400
right hand is trying to put on

2961
01:42:46,709 --> 01:42:45,360
so these two different consciousnesses

2962
01:42:48,629 --> 01:42:46,719
and i'm saying the

2963
01:42:50,550 --> 01:42:48,639
tip of an iceberg there's this whole

2964
01:42:53,910 --> 01:42:50,560
lattice of conscious agents that

2965
01:42:57,990 --> 01:42:53,920
that together um cooperate

2966
01:43:02,070 --> 01:42:58,000
to create um the the conscious age

2967
01:43:04,390 --> 01:43:02,080
that's me but but the self that i have

2968
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:04,400
the the sense of of myself with my

2969
01:43:09,270 --> 01:43:05,760
personal history and so forth

2970
01:43:11,750 --> 01:43:09,280
is a data structure that i create okay i

2971
01:43:12,870 --> 01:43:11,760
you know i i feel like i'm slipping up

2972
01:43:14,310 --> 01:43:12,880
because i don't know

2973
01:43:16,310 --> 01:43:14,320
and this is another one by the way

2974
01:43:17,830 --> 01:43:16,320
causality is elusive identity

2975
01:43:19,750 --> 01:43:17,840
is also one of those where the closer

2976
01:43:23,350 --> 01:43:19,760
you look the more

2977
01:43:26,629 --> 01:43:23,360
liquid liquid it gets are you using

2978
01:43:29,990 --> 01:43:26,639
self and identity synonymously

2979
01:43:32,229 --> 01:43:30,000
well so no

2980
01:43:33,830 --> 01:43:32,239
so i'm thinking about self in the

2981
01:43:34,550 --> 01:43:33,840
colloquial sense that we most of you

2982
01:43:37,350 --> 01:43:34,560
know think about

2983
01:43:38,870 --> 01:43:37,360
you know i am so and so here's my name

2984
01:43:40,950 --> 01:43:38,880
this is my personal history

2985
01:43:42,870 --> 01:43:40,960
this is what's important to me this is

2986
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:42,880
my goals and so

2987
01:43:51,590 --> 01:43:49,189
self that we that we that we experience

2988
01:43:54,229 --> 01:43:51,600
ourselves the thing that we're afraid of

2989
01:43:55,109 --> 01:43:54,239
losing in death and so forth right that

2990
01:44:05,189 --> 01:43:55,119
that

2991
01:44:07,189 --> 01:44:05,199
data structure yes

2992
01:44:08,390 --> 01:44:07,199
that's right okay sorry continue at

2993
01:44:11,750 --> 01:44:08,400
least in this theory

2994
01:44:13,109 --> 01:44:11,760
that i'm working on um and i can explain

2995
01:44:17,109 --> 01:44:13,119
why we're going that direction if you

2996
01:44:20,229 --> 01:44:17,119
want but but but the notion of a self

2997
01:44:21,350 --> 01:44:20,239
right so there's certain views of the

2998
01:44:24,550 --> 01:44:21,360
self that it's

2999
01:44:25,189 --> 01:44:24,560
um there's no such thing as a persisting

3000
01:44:26,950 --> 01:44:25,199
self

3001
01:44:28,790 --> 01:44:26,960
but this like this is called the pearl

3002
01:44:31,750 --> 01:44:28,800
view it's like the number of pearls on

3003
01:44:33,109 --> 01:44:31,760
a string so there's a pearl a different

3004
01:44:35,669 --> 01:44:33,119
instantiation of the self

3005
01:44:36,390 --> 01:44:35,679
at each moment along this string so

3006
01:44:38,149 --> 01:44:36,400
there are certain

3007
01:44:39,669 --> 01:44:38,159
eastern mystical traditions but also

3008
01:44:41,830 --> 01:44:39,679
certain western philosophers

3009
01:44:43,350 --> 01:44:41,840
who take this this point of view that

3010
01:44:44,550 --> 01:44:43,360
this there's not you don't have one

3011
01:44:47,750 --> 01:44:44,560
persisting self

3012
01:44:50,870 --> 01:44:47,760
but you have a sequence of cells and so

3013
01:44:52,629 --> 01:44:50,880
william james point of view um but

3014
01:44:54,070 --> 01:44:52,639
but the the pearl analogy would imply

3015
01:44:55,030 --> 01:44:54,080
that there's a continuum there's a

3016
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:55,040
string

3017
01:45:03,270 --> 01:44:59,520
said the thought itself

3018
01:45:05,030 --> 01:45:03,280
is the thinker um which is interesting i

3019
01:45:07,030 --> 01:45:05,040
don't know exactly what james means by

3020
01:45:10,470 --> 01:45:07,040
that but he was saying that there's no

3021
01:45:14,950 --> 01:45:10,480
there's no thinker no self

3022
01:45:17,109 --> 01:45:14,960
beyond the occurring thought right now

3023
01:45:18,629 --> 01:45:17,119
but the but the thought itself is

3024
01:45:21,590 --> 01:45:18,639
creating the illusion

3025
01:45:22,470 --> 01:45:21,600
of a persisting thinker of a persisting

3026
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:22,480
self

3027
01:45:25,669 --> 01:45:24,239
now many western religions on the other

3028
01:45:27,109 --> 01:45:25,679
hand will take

3029
01:45:28,709 --> 01:45:27,119
just the opposite point of view they'll

3030
01:45:30,550 --> 01:45:28,719
say there's a

3031
01:45:33,990 --> 01:45:30,560
there is of course a self and it's

3032
01:45:35,270 --> 01:45:34,000
eternal and what you do here

3033
01:45:37,590 --> 01:45:35,280
determines whether that self will go to

3034
01:45:40,070 --> 01:45:37,600
heaven or to hell or something like that

3035
01:45:41,750 --> 01:45:40,080
so so so you can see there's a lot

3036
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:41,760
riding on this notion of self and there

3037
01:45:46,950 --> 01:45:43,440
are widely differing

3038
01:45:48,709 --> 01:45:46,960
points of view and the reason in

3039
01:45:50,390 --> 01:45:48,719
in my theory that i've been working by

3040
01:45:53,030 --> 01:45:50,400
the way by my throat of course i'm

3041
01:45:53,750 --> 01:45:53,040
not alone i've got a bunch of wonderful

3042
01:45:56,149 --> 01:45:53,760
collaborators

3043
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:56,159
chaitan prakash bruce bennett when

3044
01:46:00,550 --> 01:45:57,600
you've seen chris fields

3045
01:46:01,669 --> 01:46:00,560
robert prentner federico fajin a bunch

3046
01:46:03,750 --> 01:46:01,679
of really

3047
01:46:04,790 --> 01:46:03,760
brilliant people so when i say my theory

3048
01:46:06,550 --> 01:46:04,800
you know that's

3049
01:46:07,830 --> 01:46:06,560
in quotes and also when you say maya

3050
01:46:08,790 --> 01:46:07,840
that you're implying itself

3051
01:46:10,550 --> 01:46:08,800
myself that's right but you're

3052
01:46:11,430 --> 01:46:10,560
questioning at the same time yourself

3053
01:46:14,149 --> 01:46:11,440
itself

3054
01:46:16,229 --> 01:46:14,159
sorry continue it's so tricky to talk

3055
01:46:19,430 --> 01:46:16,239
about this but anyway

3056
01:46:23,350 --> 01:46:19,440
that's right but it's fun when

3057
01:46:28,310 --> 01:46:26,390
that we have never questioned in many

3058
01:46:30,070 --> 01:46:28,320
cases or just assumed

3059
01:46:31,669 --> 01:46:30,080
it's i think i find it really refreshing

3060
01:46:32,550 --> 01:46:31,679
to have everything that i thought i knew

3061
01:46:34,870 --> 01:46:32,560
blown away

3062
01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:34,880
i mean it's really quite fun it's it's

3063
01:46:38,390 --> 01:46:36,000
maybe an acquired taste

3064
01:46:39,430 --> 01:46:38,400
like you know but but but it's an

3065
01:46:42,390 --> 01:46:39,440
interesting

3066
01:46:43,750 --> 01:46:42,400
thing to be surprised what i thought i

3067
01:46:45,590 --> 01:46:43,760
knew i don't know

3068
01:46:47,270 --> 01:46:45,600
but in the case of the self when i was

3069
01:46:48,790 --> 01:46:47,280
trying to come up with the theory of

3070
01:46:51,109 --> 01:46:48,800
consciousness

3071
01:46:51,830 --> 01:46:51,119
as a scientist what you try to do when

3072
01:46:56,229 --> 01:46:51,840
you're

3073
01:46:57,510 --> 01:46:56,239
put as few assumptions as possible up

3074
01:47:01,189 --> 01:46:57,520
front

3075
01:47:02,470 --> 01:47:01,199
right because every assumption you build

3076
01:47:03,910 --> 01:47:02,480
in is something you're not explaining is

3077
01:47:05,430 --> 01:47:03,920
something you're assuming

3078
01:47:07,669 --> 01:47:05,440
so you want to assume as little as

3079
01:47:08,950 --> 01:47:07,679
possible so in the theory of conscious

3080
01:47:11,189 --> 01:47:08,960
agents

3081
01:47:12,870 --> 01:47:11,199
i don't i mean of course i could have

3082
01:47:14,629 --> 01:47:12,880
said okay they also have a self and they

3083
01:47:17,590 --> 01:47:14,639
have an i and so forth but

3084
01:47:19,270 --> 01:47:17,600
but i decided not to do that because it

3085
01:47:22,550 --> 01:47:19,280
turned out if i just said

3086
01:47:23,910 --> 01:47:22,560
there are these entities just call them

3087
01:47:25,189 --> 01:47:23,920
formal structural entities called

3088
01:47:27,030 --> 01:47:25,199
conscious agents

3089
01:47:28,950 --> 01:47:27,040
they may not at all be aware of

3090
01:47:31,350 --> 01:47:28,960
themselves

3091
01:47:32,550 --> 01:47:31,360
as entities so they may not have any

3092
01:47:34,870 --> 01:47:32,560
self-awareness at all

3093
01:47:36,470 --> 01:47:34,880
they just have conscious experiences

3094
01:47:38,229 --> 01:47:36,480
that's all they have

3095
01:47:39,669 --> 01:47:38,239
they make decisions and they take

3096
01:47:42,070 --> 01:47:39,679
actions but those actions

3097
01:47:43,669 --> 01:47:42,080
all they do is affect the conscious

3098
01:47:46,470 --> 01:47:43,679
experience of the other entities

3099
01:47:47,510 --> 01:47:46,480
that's it there's no self there's

3100
01:47:49,270 --> 01:47:47,520
nothing like that

3101
01:47:50,629 --> 01:47:49,280
there's no memory by the way there's no

3102
01:47:54,470 --> 01:47:50,639
intelligence

3103
01:47:57,030 --> 01:47:54,480
nothing it's just experiences leading to

3104
01:47:58,070 --> 01:47:57,040
decisions at the fundamental atomic

3105
01:48:02,390 --> 01:47:58,080
level

3106
01:48:05,189 --> 01:48:02,400
so that that and i do this on purpose

3107
01:48:06,070 --> 01:48:05,199
the the goal is to make the foundations

3108
01:48:09,669 --> 01:48:06,080
of your theory

3109
01:48:13,270 --> 01:48:09,679
as sparse as possible that's different

3110
01:48:14,149 --> 01:48:13,280
we do a scientist as few assumptions as

3111
01:48:15,830 --> 01:48:14,159
possible

3112
01:48:17,510 --> 01:48:15,840
sure i could have thrown in myself i

3113
01:48:19,350 --> 01:48:17,520
could throw in the kitchen sink let me

3114
01:48:21,270 --> 01:48:19,360
throw in intelligence let me throw in

3115
01:48:22,790 --> 01:48:21,280
just well there's nothing left to

3116
01:48:23,510 --> 01:48:22,800
explain i've just i've just assumed it

3117
01:48:25,189 --> 01:48:23,520
all right

3118
01:48:26,629 --> 01:48:25,199
there we go that's well there's no

3119
01:48:30,830 --> 01:48:26,639
theory there so that

3120
01:48:33,990 --> 01:48:30,840
so the reason i stopped where i stopped

3121
01:48:37,030 --> 01:48:34,000
was very nice

3122
01:48:37,910 --> 01:48:37,040
theorem by writing down a set of

3123
01:48:42,390 --> 01:48:37,920
experiences

3124
01:48:44,070 --> 01:48:42,400
markovian kernel

3125
01:48:45,510 --> 01:48:44,080
which is a way of talking about the

3126
01:48:47,830 --> 01:48:45,520
probabilities of the different decisions

3127
01:48:50,790 --> 01:48:47,840
that you could take

3128
01:48:52,870 --> 01:48:50,800
the markovian kernels are provably

3129
01:48:56,310 --> 01:48:52,880
computationally universal

3130
01:49:00,550 --> 01:48:56,320
that means that with that

3131
01:49:03,109 --> 01:49:00,560
little foundation experiences and

3132
01:49:04,790 --> 01:49:03,119
decisions to act that are modeled by

3133
01:49:06,870 --> 01:49:04,800
markovian kernels

3134
01:49:10,390 --> 01:49:06,880
i am computationally universal anything

3135
01:49:13,990 --> 01:49:10,400
that can be simulated by any computer

3136
01:49:16,070 --> 01:49:14,000
quantum or otherwise i believe can be

3137
01:49:18,790 --> 01:49:16,080
simulated by this network of conscious

3138
01:49:20,470 --> 01:49:18,800
agents so

3139
01:49:22,709 --> 01:49:20,480
even though my foundations are

3140
01:49:25,830 --> 01:49:22,719
incredibly

3141
01:49:27,830 --> 01:49:25,840
sparse there are there are agents

3142
01:49:31,510 --> 01:49:27,840
which have experiences and make choices

3143
01:49:35,270 --> 01:49:33,669
networks of agents can provably compute

3144
01:49:38,390 --> 01:49:35,280
anything that's computable at all

3145
01:49:39,910 --> 01:49:38,400
period so because i know in cognitive

3146
01:49:41,189 --> 01:49:39,920
neuroscience for example that we have

3147
01:49:44,229 --> 01:49:41,199
mathematical models that are

3148
01:49:47,430 --> 01:49:44,239
very very good at problem solving

3149
01:49:49,910 --> 01:49:47,440
um intelligence

3150
01:49:51,350 --> 01:49:49,920
creating all sorts of structures um i

3151
01:49:52,550 --> 01:49:51,360
can build networks of conscious agents

3152
01:49:54,390 --> 01:49:52,560
that can do anything that cognitive

3153
01:49:57,189 --> 01:49:54,400
neuroscience can do right now

3154
01:49:58,390 --> 01:49:57,199
so that's why i stopped i i don't need

3155
01:50:00,149 --> 01:49:58,400
anything more

3156
01:50:01,830 --> 01:50:00,159
i can build models of the self out of

3157
01:50:04,870 --> 01:50:01,840
networks of conscious agents

3158
01:50:06,149 --> 01:50:04,880
if if so so there's no reason for me to

3159
01:50:08,229 --> 01:50:06,159
assume them

3160
01:50:09,750 --> 01:50:08,239
i should force myself to build them from

3161
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:09,760
networks of conscious agents and so

3162
01:50:14,070 --> 01:50:10,400
that's

3163
01:50:16,550 --> 01:50:14,080
so i've what we've got is

3164
01:50:17,830 --> 01:50:16,560
essentially the tinker toys of

3165
01:50:19,189 --> 01:50:17,840
consciousness

3166
01:50:22,470 --> 01:50:19,199
now we can build up any structure that

3167
01:50:27,830 --> 01:50:25,910
going back to this d and a and

3168
01:50:29,510 --> 01:50:27,840
p model let's forget about the p because

3169
01:50:31,189 --> 01:50:29,520
it's just conscious agents

3170
01:50:33,189 --> 01:50:31,199
the decisions and the actions are

3171
01:50:36,830 --> 01:50:33,199
stochastic so they're markov kernels

3172
01:50:39,750 --> 01:50:36,840
right where's the free will there right

3173
01:50:42,470 --> 01:50:39,760
so

3174
01:50:43,669 --> 01:50:42,480
all the of course this raises a deep

3175
01:50:44,790 --> 01:50:43,679
question about the relationship between

3176
01:50:45,990 --> 01:50:44,800
mathematics

3177
01:50:47,990 --> 01:50:46,000
and the thing that you're modeling with

3178
01:50:48,550 --> 01:50:48,000
the mathematics right all right so all

3179
01:50:51,910 --> 01:50:48,560
i've got

3180
01:50:53,270 --> 01:50:51,920
are measurable structures that i say are

3181
01:50:54,629 --> 01:50:53,280
conscious experiences spaces of

3182
01:50:56,709 --> 01:50:54,639
conscious experiences

3183
01:50:58,310 --> 01:50:56,719
right and then i've got these markovian

3184
01:51:01,109 --> 01:50:58,320
kernels which i say are

3185
01:51:01,510 --> 01:51:01,119
modeling the choices and you can say

3186
01:51:02,709 --> 01:51:01,520
well

3187
01:51:04,229 --> 01:51:02,719
you know i just see that i see

3188
01:51:05,109 --> 01:51:04,239
probabilities there but i don't see any

3189
01:51:06,709 --> 01:51:05,119
free will

3190
01:51:08,870 --> 01:51:06,719
and so it's a matter of how i interpret

3191
01:51:11,030 --> 01:51:08,880
those probabilities

3192
01:51:12,070 --> 01:51:11,040
i'm one could interpret those

3193
01:51:15,270 --> 01:51:12,080
probabilities as

3194
01:51:18,390 --> 01:51:15,280
pure objective chance and i think many

3195
01:51:19,510 --> 01:51:18,400
of my physicalist colleagues would

3196
01:51:21,430 --> 01:51:19,520
would say you know if you see

3197
01:51:24,870 --> 01:51:21,440
probability somewhere then um

3198
01:51:26,149 --> 01:51:24,880
if it's not due to ignorance if

3199
01:51:27,990 --> 01:51:26,159
the probabilities are not due to my

3200
01:51:28,629 --> 01:51:28,000
ignorance then it's due to an objective

3201
01:51:32,709 --> 01:51:28,639
chance

3202
01:51:35,830 --> 01:51:32,719
in nature and but i

3203
01:51:37,830 --> 01:51:35,840
want to be a monist in

3204
01:51:39,350 --> 01:51:37,840
my theory i don't want to be a dualist i

3205
01:51:41,350 --> 01:51:39,360
if i'm going to say that consciousness

3206
01:51:45,109 --> 01:51:41,360
is fundamental

3207
01:51:48,629 --> 01:51:45,119
then i don't also want

3208
01:51:50,149 --> 01:51:48,639
to propose as a dualist that there are

3209
01:51:52,709 --> 01:51:50,159
other sources of novelty

3210
01:51:54,070 --> 01:51:52,719
outside of consciousness into the

3211
01:51:56,470 --> 01:51:54,080
universe

3212
01:51:58,070 --> 01:51:56,480
i want consciousness to be the only

3213
01:52:01,109 --> 01:51:58,080
source of novelty

3214
01:52:03,030 --> 01:52:01,119
in in this universe objective chance

3215
01:52:04,310 --> 01:52:03,040
i mean what do we mean when we say

3216
01:52:06,709 --> 01:52:04,320
objective chance

3217
01:52:08,550 --> 01:52:06,719
in as a physicalist right so i suppose

3218
01:52:11,109 --> 01:52:08,560
i'm a physicalist i believe space-time

3219
01:52:12,950 --> 01:52:11,119
say is fundamental and i believe that

3220
01:52:14,709 --> 01:52:12,960
there are things called objective chants

3221
01:52:16,310 --> 01:52:14,719
that are not just due to my ignorance

3222
01:52:18,790 --> 01:52:16,320
this is something

3223
01:52:19,589 --> 01:52:18,800
objective that we call objective chances

3224
01:52:23,030 --> 01:52:19,599
what i'm saying

3225
01:52:26,070 --> 01:52:24,709
these probabilities objective chance i'm

3226
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:26,080
saying

3227
01:52:31,510 --> 01:52:29,119
there is a source of novelty

3228
01:52:33,430 --> 01:52:31,520
coming into my universe that i cannot

3229
01:52:35,189 --> 01:52:33,440
explain

3230
01:52:38,229 --> 01:52:35,199
there is where a miracle is happening so

3231
01:52:41,030 --> 01:52:38,239
to be very very clear objective chance

3232
01:52:43,030 --> 01:52:41,040
is a miracle it's you're in in the

3233
01:52:46,149 --> 01:52:43,040
following sense you're saying

3234
01:52:48,790 --> 01:52:46,159
my theory has no resources

3235
01:52:49,589 --> 01:52:48,800
to explain those outcomes i cannot

3236
01:52:50,870 --> 01:52:49,599
predict

3237
01:52:53,510 --> 01:52:50,880
those outcomes that's why i'm calling it

3238
01:52:57,910 --> 01:52:53,520
objective chance well

3239
01:52:59,350 --> 01:52:57,920
that that reinterpreted re-explained is

3240
01:53:01,350 --> 01:52:59,360
in the language of your theory you have

3241
01:53:04,550 --> 01:53:01,360
no resources to explain

3242
01:53:06,070 --> 01:53:04,560
what's happening so in terms of your

3243
01:53:10,070 --> 01:53:06,080
theory that's a miracle

3244
01:53:11,830 --> 01:53:10,080
it's unexplainable now so every theory

3245
01:53:13,270 --> 01:53:11,840
and this is not a put down every theory

3246
01:53:14,390 --> 01:53:13,280
has its miracles we just have to own

3247
01:53:16,310 --> 01:53:14,400
that every scientific thing

3248
01:53:19,750 --> 01:53:16,320
right right and you're using miracles as

3249
01:53:22,629 --> 01:53:19,760
a synonym for axioms

3250
01:53:23,910 --> 01:53:22,639
that's right it's where it's a miracle

3251
01:53:26,149 --> 01:53:23,920
for your theory

3252
01:53:27,430 --> 01:53:26,159
if your theory has to assume it can't

3253
01:53:30,870 --> 01:53:27,440
explain it

3254
01:53:33,189 --> 01:53:30,880
okay right okay now when you have

3255
01:53:36,470 --> 01:53:33,199
probabilities

3256
01:53:37,350 --> 01:53:36,480
there are two kinds of miracles that you

3257
01:53:40,149 --> 01:53:37,360
can

3258
01:53:41,350 --> 01:53:40,159
imagine if it's not just due to lack of

3259
01:53:43,109 --> 01:53:41,360
knowledge right so sometimes you have

3260
01:53:44,709 --> 01:53:43,119
probabilities just because

3261
01:53:45,830 --> 01:53:44,719
there's a true state of affairs but

3262
01:53:46,790 --> 01:53:45,840
you're you're you don't have enough

3263
01:53:47,669 --> 01:53:46,800
knowledge that's a different kind of

3264
01:53:50,310 --> 01:53:47,679
thing

3265
01:53:51,589 --> 01:53:50,320
but when it's a fundamental probability

3266
01:53:53,669 --> 01:53:51,599
you can

3267
01:53:55,350 --> 01:53:53,679
either ascribe it to the miracle of

3268
01:53:58,550 --> 01:53:55,360
objective chance

3269
01:54:01,910 --> 01:53:58,560
or free will they're both

3270
01:54:03,430 --> 01:54:01,920
equally miracles but i since i'm trying

3271
01:54:05,510 --> 01:54:03,440
to have a monist theory

3272
01:54:06,950 --> 01:54:05,520
i interpret probability not as a as

3273
01:54:10,070 --> 01:54:06,960
objective chance but as

3274
01:54:11,990 --> 01:54:10,080
free will choices and then it's you know

3275
01:54:14,950 --> 01:54:12,000
up to me then in the mathematics to

3276
01:54:17,830 --> 01:54:14,960
unpack what does that free will choice

3277
01:54:19,350 --> 01:54:17,840
idea amount to and it's really quite

3278
01:54:20,550 --> 01:54:19,360
interesting because this is a network

3279
01:54:23,350 --> 01:54:20,560
dynamics

3280
01:54:23,830 --> 01:54:23,360
each agent at each level of the net of

3281
01:54:26,390 --> 01:54:23,840
the

3282
01:54:28,149 --> 01:54:26,400
dynamics is making its own contributions

3283
01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:28,159
to free will choices and there

3284
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:29,840
there are bottom-up influences the free

3285
01:54:32,709 --> 01:54:31,360
will choices of lower level agents

3286
01:54:36,310 --> 01:54:32,719
influence higher agents

3287
01:54:39,350 --> 01:54:36,320
and vice versa and the whole system

3288
01:54:41,669 --> 01:54:39,360
of conscious agents also itself

3289
01:54:42,870 --> 01:54:41,679
is an agent by the mathematics of

3290
01:54:45,510 --> 01:54:42,880
mathematics says

3291
01:54:46,470 --> 01:54:45,520
collections of agents also form an agent

3292
01:54:49,270 --> 01:54:46,480
and so

3293
01:54:50,629 --> 01:54:49,280
what you get is this really interesting

3294
01:54:53,189 --> 01:54:50,639
analysis and synthesis

3295
01:54:54,149 --> 01:54:53,199
approach where i can get a dynamical

3296
01:54:57,510 --> 01:54:54,159
model

3297
01:54:59,189 --> 01:54:57,520
of free will bottom up and top down

3298
01:55:01,830 --> 01:54:59,199
at the same time and that would be my

3299
01:55:04,629 --> 01:55:01,840
model of the free will choice of the one

3300
01:55:05,350 --> 01:55:04,639
single agent and so it's it's going to

3301
01:55:08,790 --> 01:55:05,360
be

3302
01:55:12,229 --> 01:55:08,800
it's again forcing me to do the work

3303
01:55:15,510 --> 01:55:12,239
um is forcing me to do the work of what

3304
01:55:17,589 --> 01:55:15,520
what ultimately do i mean by free will

3305
01:55:18,629 --> 01:55:17,599
by by assigning it only to local agents

3306
01:55:20,070 --> 01:55:18,639
and then saying what

3307
01:55:21,669 --> 01:55:20,080
what do you mean by free will when you

3308
01:55:24,470 --> 01:55:21,679
have agents interact

3309
01:55:25,030 --> 01:55:24,480
what is right right so a question i have

3310
01:55:26,470 --> 01:55:25,040
for you

3311
01:55:28,070 --> 01:55:26,480
let's imagine we have this graph and

3312
01:55:28,629 --> 01:55:28,080
it's extended and they're all conscious

3313
01:55:31,830 --> 01:55:28,639
agents

3314
01:55:33,189 --> 01:55:31,840
okay we pick one of them but and there's

3315
01:55:34,629 --> 01:55:33,199
free will associated

3316
01:55:36,790 --> 01:55:34,639
and they influence one another does that

3317
01:55:40,390 --> 01:55:36,800
mean from sheer will

3318
01:55:42,390 --> 01:55:40,400
can one drastically change the game for

3319
01:55:44,550 --> 01:55:42,400
the rest

3320
01:55:47,589 --> 01:55:44,560
um there may be cases where that can

3321
01:55:51,189 --> 01:55:47,599
happen but it looks like

3322
01:55:57,189 --> 01:55:51,199
it's every agent

3323
01:56:01,510 --> 01:55:59,270
it's a it's almost like a symphony right

3324
01:56:03,510 --> 01:56:01,520
every member of the symphony

3325
01:56:05,030 --> 01:56:03,520
makes their contribution to the hole

3326
01:56:08,070 --> 01:56:05,040
there may be a conductor

3327
01:56:10,470 --> 01:56:08,080
but but um

3328
01:56:12,550 --> 01:56:10,480
it's it's an organic hole so where would

3329
01:56:14,790 --> 01:56:12,560
the conductor be in this model

3330
01:56:15,830 --> 01:56:14,800
well that's the thing there wouldn't

3331
01:56:17,990 --> 01:56:15,840
there would only be

3332
01:56:18,950 --> 01:56:18,000
like relative conductors that the agents

3333
01:56:22,470 --> 01:56:18,960
above

3334
01:56:25,270 --> 01:56:22,480
would have sort of top-down influence

3335
01:56:26,149 --> 01:56:25,280
but the agents below have really strong

3336
01:56:28,229 --> 01:56:26,159
bottom-up

3337
01:56:29,750 --> 01:56:28,239
influence on the free will decisions so

3338
01:56:31,350 --> 01:56:29,760
it's hard for me to say at this point

3339
01:56:32,229 --> 01:56:31,360
that one is more important than the

3340
01:56:33,750 --> 01:56:32,239
other

3341
01:56:35,910 --> 01:56:33,760
yeah and i'm having a difficult time

3342
01:56:38,149 --> 01:56:35,920
when you say that one is above another

3343
01:56:39,270 --> 01:56:38,159
because as far as i know from just from

3344
01:56:40,470 --> 01:56:39,280
reading the papers and it could be

3345
01:56:43,189 --> 01:56:40,480
mistaken it

3346
01:56:45,189 --> 01:56:43,199
it's not as if one is privileged one

3347
01:56:47,270 --> 01:56:45,199
node is privileged over another

3348
01:56:48,790 --> 01:56:47,280
right so so that's right when i say

3349
01:56:51,750 --> 01:56:48,800
above it's it's

3350
01:56:52,149 --> 01:56:51,760
it's like um my two hemispheres in my

3351
01:56:55,750 --> 01:56:52,159
brain

3352
01:56:58,149 --> 01:56:55,760
right when the corpus callosum is intact

3353
01:56:59,030 --> 01:56:58,159
there seems to be a unified me that i

3354
01:57:02,870 --> 01:56:59,040
called on

3355
01:57:04,870 --> 01:57:02,880
right but if you cut my corpus closum

3356
01:57:07,189 --> 01:57:04,880
you could easily it turns out and this

3357
01:57:11,830 --> 01:57:07,199
is how strange it can get

3358
01:57:14,390 --> 01:57:11,840
they would they were able um to get

3359
01:57:15,910 --> 01:57:14,400
these split brain patients to have to

3360
01:57:17,109 --> 01:57:15,920
play 20 questions with each other with

3361
01:57:19,830 --> 01:57:17,119
themselves

3362
01:57:20,629 --> 01:57:19,840
you the right hemisphere has a word in

3363
01:57:22,070 --> 01:57:20,639
mind

3364
01:57:24,950 --> 01:57:22,080
the left hemisphere doesn't know what it

3365
01:57:25,750 --> 01:57:24,960
is and then the left hemisphere which

3366
01:57:27,910 --> 01:57:25,760
can talk

3367
01:57:29,750 --> 01:57:27,920
can start asking questions is it uh

3368
01:57:31,030 --> 01:57:29,760
animal is it vegetable is it mineral

3369
01:57:33,270 --> 01:57:31,040
things like that

3370
01:57:35,270 --> 01:57:33,280
and the right hemisphere which can't

3371
01:57:36,629 --> 01:57:35,280
talk but can understand language can use

3372
01:57:39,350 --> 01:57:36,639
say the left hand to

3373
01:57:39,990 --> 01:57:39,360
thumbs up for yes thumbs down for no and

3374
01:57:43,830 --> 01:57:40,000
so

3375
01:57:45,109 --> 01:57:43,840
these a split brain patient

3376
01:57:47,189 --> 01:57:45,119
has two separate spheres of

3377
01:57:48,629 --> 01:57:47,199
consciousness so separate that they can

3378
01:57:50,790 --> 01:57:48,639
play 20 questions and the left

3379
01:57:53,510 --> 01:57:50,800
hemisphere doesn't know the answer

3380
01:57:55,669 --> 01:57:53,520
right the left hemisphere does not know

3381
01:57:57,270 --> 01:57:55,679
and sometimes will fail to guess in 20

3382
01:57:58,310 --> 01:57:57,280
questions what's in the mind of the

3383
01:57:59,750 --> 01:57:58,320
right hemisphere

3384
01:58:01,669 --> 01:57:59,760
now you might some people argue that

3385
01:58:03,270 --> 01:58:01,679
there's no separate personalities no

3386
01:58:06,070 --> 01:58:03,280
separate consciousnesses

3387
01:58:06,310 --> 01:58:06,080
um good luck making that point when you

3388
01:58:08,709 --> 01:58:06,320
know

3389
01:58:09,750 --> 01:58:08,719
the left hemisphere can fail to to win a

3390
01:58:11,750 --> 01:58:09,760
20 questions

3391
01:58:13,030 --> 01:58:11,760
game with the right hemisphere even

3392
01:58:14,390 --> 01:58:13,040
giving its level best

3393
01:58:16,870 --> 01:58:14,400
and i'm saying that's just the tip of an

3394
01:58:18,550 --> 01:58:16,880
iceberg but it goes all the way

3395
01:58:20,950 --> 01:58:18,560
it goes all the way down to what i call

3396
01:58:23,830 --> 01:58:20,960
these one-bit agents that have just

3397
01:58:25,990 --> 01:58:23,840
basically two conscious experiences say

3398
01:58:27,830 --> 01:58:26,000
red or nothing or something like that

3399
01:58:30,229 --> 01:58:27,840
um and and so it's in that sense when i

3400
01:58:33,910 --> 01:58:30,239
talk about agents being above

3401
01:58:34,629 --> 01:58:33,920
and whatever agent is me that's talking

3402
01:58:36,390 --> 01:58:34,639
to you

3403
01:58:37,910 --> 01:58:36,400
seems to be a combination of my left

3404
01:58:38,709 --> 01:58:37,920
hemisphere and my right hemisphere

3405
01:58:41,430 --> 01:58:38,719
agents

3406
01:58:42,390 --> 01:58:41,440
if we split my corpus closum that higher

3407
01:58:44,229 --> 01:58:42,400
level agent

3408
01:58:45,589 --> 01:58:44,239
apparently would be gone and there would

3409
01:58:47,270 --> 01:58:45,599
be two different agents

3410
01:58:49,189 --> 01:58:47,280
that could now play 20 questions with it

3411
01:58:50,870 --> 01:58:49,199
with each other and lose lose the game

3412
01:58:52,709 --> 01:58:50,880
of 20 questions with each other

3413
01:58:54,629 --> 01:58:52,719
whereas i couldn't play 20 questions

3414
01:58:56,790 --> 01:58:54,639
with myself right now and lose

3415
01:58:58,390 --> 01:58:56,800
but if you if you told me something i

3416
01:58:59,189 --> 01:58:58,400
would all i would know my left minister

3417
01:59:03,270 --> 01:58:59,199
would know

3418
01:59:03,830 --> 01:59:03,280
which i talk about agents being higher

3419
01:59:06,870 --> 01:59:03,840
and lower

3420
01:59:08,070 --> 01:59:06,880
agents can combine to create new agents

3421
01:59:11,030 --> 01:59:08,080
are you familiar with douglas

3422
01:59:13,189 --> 01:59:11,040
hofsteder's work a bit

3423
01:59:14,950 --> 01:59:13,199
what do you think of his theory of

3424
01:59:16,390 --> 01:59:14,960
consciousness it sounds similar to what

3425
01:59:17,669 --> 01:59:16,400
you're describing in the sense of a

3426
01:59:20,070 --> 01:59:17,679
strange loop that

3427
01:59:22,709 --> 01:59:20,080
well you can do a much better job at

3428
01:59:25,910 --> 01:59:22,719
describing it than i can

3429
01:59:32,470 --> 01:59:29,189
there's a fundamental difference in

3430
01:59:34,390 --> 01:59:32,480
the approach that we're taking um

3431
01:59:36,390 --> 01:59:34,400
and you know hofstadter is brilliant

3432
01:59:40,149 --> 01:59:36,400
right he's

3433
01:59:42,629 --> 01:59:40,159
a world-class genius um he's

3434
01:59:44,950 --> 01:59:42,639
going after the notion of of

3435
01:59:47,350 --> 01:59:44,960
self-referential systems

3436
01:59:47,990 --> 01:59:47,360
and those have really interesting

3437
01:59:50,629 --> 01:59:48,000
properties

3438
01:59:51,350 --> 01:59:50,639
right if i have a sentence that of the

3439
01:59:54,550 --> 01:59:51,360
form

3440
01:59:56,390 --> 01:59:54,560
um this sentence is false

3441
01:59:58,149 --> 01:59:56,400
that the sentence is referring to itself

3442
02:00:00,470 --> 01:59:58,159
by saying this sentence

3443
02:00:03,189 --> 02:00:00,480
is false the sentence is is got an a

3444
02:00:06,790 --> 02:00:03,199
strange loop it's got a self-referential

3445
02:00:08,870 --> 02:00:06,800
loop in it and then you get all sorts of

3446
02:00:10,550 --> 02:00:08,880
weird things that happen because is that

3447
02:00:11,350 --> 02:00:10,560
sentence true i mean the sentence says

3448
02:00:14,709 --> 02:00:11,360
the sentence

3449
02:00:15,510 --> 02:00:14,719
is false well if it's true then it's

3450
02:00:18,550 --> 02:00:15,520
false

3451
02:00:22,070 --> 02:00:18,560
get

3452
02:00:23,510 --> 02:00:22,080
caught in this weird thing and so

3453
02:00:25,430 --> 02:00:23,520
i mean hofstadter has a lot of brilliant

3454
02:00:26,870 --> 02:00:25,440
ideas and i don't want to claim that i'm

3455
02:00:31,589 --> 02:00:26,880
doing justice to them but but

3456
02:00:37,270 --> 02:00:34,510
there's a an essential role to this

3457
02:00:37,910 --> 02:00:37,280
self-referential kind of structure that

3458
02:00:39,189 --> 02:00:37,920
that we see

3459
02:00:41,030 --> 02:00:39,199
in in that kind of sentence this

3460
02:00:43,990 --> 02:00:41,040
sentence is so is false

3461
02:00:45,510 --> 02:00:44,000
and that you get um in the work of kurt

3462
02:00:47,830 --> 02:00:45,520
gerdel when he proves his incompleteness

3463
02:00:50,390 --> 02:00:47,840
theorems and so forth there's this this

3464
02:00:51,109 --> 02:00:50,400
really clever use of mathematics to to

3465
02:00:54,310 --> 02:00:51,119
refer

3466
02:00:56,310 --> 02:00:54,320
of loops and

3467
02:00:57,910 --> 02:00:56,320
and his idea is that these kinds of

3468
02:01:00,709 --> 02:00:57,920
self-referential loops

3469
02:01:02,950 --> 02:01:00,719
are somehow critical perhaps to booting

3470
02:01:05,990 --> 02:01:02,960
up consciousness to booting up

3471
02:01:10,149 --> 02:01:06,000
what we call a self and so forth

3472
02:01:13,990 --> 02:01:11,510
there's a fundamental difference in

3473
02:01:18,550 --> 02:01:14,000
philosophy um

3474
02:01:21,990 --> 02:01:21,189
do you mean between you and hofstetter

3475
02:01:25,030 --> 02:01:22,000
that's right

3476
02:01:26,470 --> 02:01:25,040
and and my colleagues who who

3477
02:01:28,070 --> 02:01:26,480
and many of my colleagues are taking a

3478
02:01:28,709 --> 02:01:28,080
similar kind of thing that that's saying

3479
02:01:33,430 --> 02:01:28,719
that

3480
02:01:36,950 --> 02:01:33,440
property

3481
02:01:39,030 --> 02:01:36,960
of computational systems

3482
02:01:40,790 --> 02:01:39,040
like this ability to have self-reference

3483
02:01:41,910 --> 02:01:40,800
and so forth

3484
02:01:43,990 --> 02:01:41,920
but it could be other properties it

3485
02:01:45,990 --> 02:01:44,000
could be some kind of um

3486
02:01:49,350 --> 02:01:46,000
compute other computational properties

3487
02:01:50,310 --> 02:01:49,360
of of systems

3488
02:01:52,229 --> 02:01:50,320
this is called you know like the

3489
02:01:52,790 --> 02:01:52,239
computational theory of mind and so

3490
02:01:55,030 --> 02:01:52,800
forth

3491
02:01:56,229 --> 02:01:55,040
but the idea is that you start with

3492
02:01:58,950 --> 02:01:56,239
systems that are

3493
02:01:59,990 --> 02:01:58,960
that are not conscious but if they have

3494
02:02:01,109 --> 02:02:00,000
certain

3495
02:02:03,510 --> 02:02:01,119
interesting properties like

3496
02:02:06,550 --> 02:02:03,520
self-reference or other computational

3497
02:02:10,870 --> 02:02:08,470
for example certain kind of integrated

3498
02:02:13,030 --> 02:02:10,880
information that tanoni and koch

3499
02:02:14,470 --> 02:02:13,040
are looking at so they have certain

3500
02:02:15,830 --> 02:02:14,480
kinds of computational properties like

3501
02:02:16,950 --> 02:02:15,840
that they call high integrated

3502
02:02:21,430 --> 02:02:16,960
information

3503
02:02:25,030 --> 02:02:21,440
then these unconscious systems

3504
02:02:27,750 --> 02:02:25,040
give rise to consciousness now

3505
02:02:28,229 --> 02:02:27,760
i that's a fundamentally different point

3506
02:02:30,390 --> 02:02:28,239
of view

3507
02:02:31,270 --> 02:02:30,400
than the one i'm taking i'm saying look

3508
02:02:34,310 --> 02:02:31,280
i'm not

3509
02:02:37,910 --> 02:02:34,320
that's unconscious

3510
02:02:39,350 --> 02:02:37,920
i'm proposing at the foundation

3511
02:02:41,270 --> 02:02:39,360
the conscious experiences are

3512
02:02:42,790 --> 02:02:41,280
fundamental this that's where

3513
02:02:44,790 --> 02:02:42,800
explanation stops

3514
02:02:45,990 --> 02:02:44,800
this i'm not explaining how conscious

3515
02:02:48,229 --> 02:02:46,000
experiences arise

3516
02:02:49,270 --> 02:02:48,239
i'm saying that they are what what

3517
02:02:50,709 --> 02:02:49,280
exists

3518
02:02:52,550 --> 02:02:50,719
just like a physicalist who believes in

3519
02:02:53,030 --> 02:02:52,560
space-time and takes it as fundamental

3520
02:02:54,550 --> 02:02:53,040
says

3521
02:02:56,149 --> 02:02:54,560
i don't know where space time comes from

3522
02:02:58,149 --> 02:02:56,159
i'm assuming it i'm assuming that

3523
02:03:00,790 --> 02:02:58,159
space-time and fundamental particles

3524
02:03:01,350 --> 02:03:00,800
exist right every theory is going to

3525
02:03:03,830 --> 02:03:01,360
make

3526
02:03:05,750 --> 02:03:03,840
its its own assumptions so so we're all

3527
02:03:07,910 --> 02:03:05,760
equal footing in that

3528
02:03:09,430 --> 02:03:07,920
regard we all have miracles at the start

3529
02:03:10,310 --> 02:03:09,440
the question is what miracles do you

3530
02:03:13,350 --> 02:03:10,320
pick

3531
02:03:16,950 --> 02:03:13,360
and the reason i don't go

3532
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:16,960
with a physical starting point like a

3533
02:03:20,229 --> 02:03:18,639
computational system that

3534
02:03:21,669 --> 02:03:20,239
that most of the time is going to be

3535
02:03:23,350 --> 02:03:21,679
unconscious but if it has the right

3536
02:03:24,709 --> 02:03:23,360
integrated information or has the right

3537
02:03:26,390 --> 02:03:24,719
kind of self-reference

3538
02:03:28,310 --> 02:03:26,400
then the magic of consciousness somehow

3539
02:03:32,390 --> 02:03:28,320
emerges the reason i don't go after that

3540
02:03:35,430 --> 02:03:32,400
is a couple of reasons

3541
02:03:38,550 --> 02:03:37,109
no one has been able to use that

3542
02:03:41,109 --> 02:03:38,560
approach

3543
02:03:42,149 --> 02:03:41,119
to predict exactly even how one specific

3544
02:03:45,510 --> 02:03:42,159
conscious experience

3545
02:03:48,870 --> 02:03:45,520
could arise right so how could

3546
02:03:52,229 --> 02:03:48,880
self-reference or integrated information

3547
02:03:53,830 --> 02:03:52,239
or collapse

3548
02:03:55,669 --> 02:03:53,840
orchestrated collapses microtubule

3549
02:03:58,470 --> 02:03:55,679
states and certain neurons

3550
02:03:59,910 --> 02:03:58,480
be or cause my experience of the taste

3551
02:04:04,149 --> 02:03:59,920
of vanilla

3552
02:04:06,629 --> 02:04:04,159
what specific patterns of activity

3553
02:04:08,550 --> 02:04:06,639
of the brain or computational system

3554
02:04:09,270 --> 02:04:08,560
must be or must cause the taste of

3555
02:04:11,109 --> 02:04:09,280
vanilla

3556
02:04:12,629 --> 02:04:11,119
and why is it that it could not be the

3557
02:04:13,750 --> 02:04:12,639
taste of chocolate or the smell of

3558
02:04:15,830 --> 02:04:13,760
garlic

3559
02:04:17,669 --> 02:04:15,840
there's those theories have utterly

3560
02:04:20,390 --> 02:04:17,679
failed

3561
02:04:21,109 --> 02:04:20,400
to explain even one specific conscious

3562
02:04:23,350 --> 02:04:21,119
experience

3563
02:04:25,189 --> 02:04:23,360
in other words there's not one success

3564
02:04:26,870 --> 02:04:25,199
for even one specific conscious

3565
02:04:28,950 --> 02:04:26,880
experience on the table

3566
02:04:31,030 --> 02:04:28,960
that is to say why does this brain state

3567
02:04:32,390 --> 02:04:31,040
or this computational model correspond

3568
02:04:35,189 --> 02:04:32,400
to this qualia

3569
02:04:36,550 --> 02:04:35,199
it's not another and does your theory

3570
02:04:39,510 --> 02:04:36,560
deal with that

3571
02:04:40,629 --> 02:04:39,520
so so i i choose a different miracle so

3572
02:04:42,550 --> 02:04:40,639
their miracle is

3573
02:04:43,669 --> 02:04:42,560
grant me computational systems in space

3574
02:04:46,229 --> 02:04:43,679
and time

3575
02:04:47,589 --> 02:04:46,239
i will predict qualia well they can't

3576
02:04:49,350 --> 02:04:47,599
predict qualia

3577
02:04:50,629 --> 02:04:49,360
so i've granted them what they want and

3578
02:04:52,390 --> 02:04:50,639
they can't give me what they promised

3579
02:04:53,189 --> 02:04:52,400
they can't give me even one specific

3580
02:04:56,229 --> 02:04:53,199
qualia

3581
02:04:59,030 --> 02:04:56,239
it's a failure and by the way the

3582
02:04:59,669 --> 02:04:59,040
these are friends they're brilliant this

3583
02:05:02,310 --> 02:04:59,679
is good

3584
02:05:03,030 --> 02:05:02,320
they're doing great work there's not

3585
02:05:05,270 --> 02:05:03,040
absolutely

3586
02:05:06,870 --> 02:05:05,280
but i but i think that they've given

3587
02:05:08,149 --> 02:05:06,880
themselves an impossible task

3588
02:05:10,229 --> 02:05:08,159
you can't start with unconscious

3589
02:05:11,669 --> 02:05:10,239
ingredients and boot up consciousness

3590
02:05:14,229 --> 02:05:11,679
can't be done

3591
02:05:15,189 --> 02:05:14,239
so what i'm doing is i'm saying look

3592
02:05:17,430 --> 02:05:15,199
they can't explain

3593
02:05:18,470 --> 02:05:17,440
qualia no one's been able to explain

3594
02:05:20,229 --> 02:05:18,480
conscious experiences

3595
02:05:22,629 --> 02:05:20,239
i'm going to start with quiet i'm going

3596
02:05:23,990 --> 02:05:22,639
to start with

3597
02:05:26,149 --> 02:05:24,000
conscious experiences the taste of

3598
02:05:28,069 --> 02:05:26,159
garlic the smell of chocolate

3599
02:05:29,430 --> 02:05:28,079
all of these things those are the things

3600
02:05:31,189 --> 02:05:29,440
i'm going to start with

3601
02:05:32,550 --> 02:05:31,199
those are my so those are my miracles

3602
02:05:36,149 --> 02:05:32,560
right i'm not

3603
02:05:39,350 --> 02:05:36,159
explaining them i'm assuming them now

3604
02:05:40,069 --> 02:05:39,360
my goal is to say grant me this model of

3605
02:05:43,030 --> 02:05:40,079
that

3606
02:05:44,310 --> 02:05:43,040
my conscious agent model then i will

3607
02:05:46,550 --> 02:05:44,320
show you how space

3608
02:05:47,830 --> 02:05:46,560
time and quantum mechanics and general

3609
02:05:48,790 --> 02:05:47,840
relativity and evolution by natural

3610
02:05:51,830 --> 02:05:48,800
selection

3611
02:05:55,350 --> 02:05:51,840
come out as interface representations

3612
02:05:59,589 --> 02:05:55,360
of the dynamics of consciousness so

3613
02:06:04,790 --> 02:06:02,629
and as my my miracle and booting up

3614
02:06:06,229 --> 02:06:04,800
consciousness i'm going the other way

3615
02:06:08,069 --> 02:06:06,239
start with conscious experiences of my

3616
02:06:09,270 --> 02:06:08,079
miracle i will show you how to boot up

3617
02:06:12,629 --> 02:06:09,280
space time

3618
02:06:16,069 --> 02:06:12,639
now the

3619
02:06:18,149 --> 02:06:16,079
the winner will be whoever can explain

3620
02:06:19,430 --> 02:06:18,159
the most with the least assumptions

3621
02:06:23,750 --> 02:06:19,440
right

3622
02:06:25,990 --> 02:06:23,760
who are physicalists are assuming

3623
02:06:28,790 --> 02:06:26,000
space-time and computational systems

3624
02:06:30,709 --> 02:06:28,800
and they have yet failed to explain even

3625
02:06:32,229 --> 02:06:30,719
one conscious experience

3626
02:06:33,990 --> 02:06:32,239
i'm starting with conscious experiences

3627
02:06:35,830 --> 02:06:34,000
that no one can explain i can't explain

3628
02:06:38,069 --> 02:06:35,840
them either i'm assuming them

3629
02:06:39,669 --> 02:06:38,079
but if i can explain how space-time and

3630
02:06:41,589 --> 02:06:39,679
quantum mechanics and general relativity

3631
02:06:43,589 --> 02:06:41,599
come out then i have fewer miracles than

3632
02:06:45,750 --> 02:06:43,599
them so that wins

3633
02:06:47,270 --> 02:06:45,760
whichever theory has the fewer miracles

3634
02:06:49,589 --> 02:06:47,280
is the one we should prefer that's sort

3635
02:06:53,030 --> 02:06:49,599
of occam's razor

3636
02:06:55,270 --> 02:06:53,040
in your theory why is it that we would

3637
02:06:56,629 --> 02:06:55,280
let's say taste vanilla why is it that

3638
02:06:57,109 --> 02:06:56,639
we would have one experience taste of

3639
02:07:00,870 --> 02:06:57,119
villain

3640
02:07:04,470 --> 02:07:00,880
vanilla versus the sight of tico mielmo

3641
02:07:06,870 --> 02:07:04,480
which is another conscious experience

3642
02:07:07,589 --> 02:07:06,880
well i don't have an answer to that

3643
02:07:10,709 --> 02:07:07,599
right now

3644
02:07:14,310 --> 02:07:10,719
so and and the

3645
02:07:16,310 --> 02:07:14,320
very existence of conscious experiences

3646
02:07:17,589 --> 02:07:16,320
is something that i don't explain it's

3647
02:07:20,629 --> 02:07:17,599
something i assume

3648
02:07:22,390 --> 02:07:20,639
right so so my colleagues and

3649
02:07:23,830 --> 02:07:22,400
my physicalist colleagues would like to

3650
02:07:27,589 --> 02:07:23,840
say

3651
02:07:28,709 --> 02:07:27,599
the conscious experiences are

3652
02:07:30,629 --> 02:07:28,719
fundamental

3653
02:07:32,229 --> 02:07:30,639
in fact at the big bang there were no

3654
02:07:33,430 --> 02:07:32,239
conscious experiences there was just

3655
02:07:36,310 --> 02:07:33,440
space time and matter

3656
02:07:37,430 --> 02:07:36,320
and energy and so we will tell you how

3657
02:07:39,510 --> 02:07:37,440
conscious experiences

3658
02:07:40,550 --> 02:07:39,520
emerge from that but they failed to do

3659
02:07:43,669 --> 02:07:40,560
so

3660
02:07:45,350 --> 02:07:43,679
i'm saying you guys assume space time

3661
02:07:55,669 --> 02:07:45,360
and

3662
02:07:58,950 --> 02:07:55,679
you're assuming the

3663
02:08:01,750 --> 02:07:58,960
various qualia but why is it that one

3664
02:08:03,510 --> 02:08:01,760
is chosen versus another it sounds to me

3665
02:08:05,750 --> 02:08:03,520
like a similar problem that the

3666
02:08:09,189 --> 02:08:05,760
physicalists have which is to explain

3667
02:08:10,470 --> 02:08:09,199
why one qualia over another

3668
02:08:12,069 --> 02:08:10,480
and i don't have an answer to that

3669
02:08:12,950 --> 02:08:12,079
that's that's that's a very very good

3670
02:08:19,990 --> 02:08:12,960
question

3671
02:08:22,069 --> 02:08:20,000
intense

3672
02:08:23,750 --> 02:08:22,079
we can look at people with synesthesia

3673
02:08:26,310 --> 02:08:23,760
right so

3674
02:08:27,510 --> 02:08:26,320
um there was a synesthesia about four

3675
02:08:29,669 --> 02:08:27,520
percent of the population has

3676
02:08:33,109 --> 02:08:29,679
synesthesia a human population has four

3677
02:08:36,149 --> 02:08:33,119
synesthesia and to be

3678
02:08:37,270 --> 02:08:36,159
100 if you take lsd i want to talk about

3679
02:08:39,830 --> 02:08:37,280
psychedelics by the way

3680
02:08:40,470 --> 02:08:39,840
sorry continue right so so there's this

3681
02:08:43,270 --> 02:08:40,480
one guy like

3682
02:08:44,870 --> 02:08:43,280
michael watson um his synesthesia was

3683
02:08:46,870 --> 02:08:44,880
that everything he tasted

3684
02:08:47,910 --> 02:08:46,880
with his tongue he felt as a

3685
02:08:50,950 --> 02:08:47,920
three-dimensional shape

3686
02:08:52,470 --> 02:08:50,960
in space that's your friend uh he wasn't

3687
02:08:54,709 --> 02:08:52,480
a friend of mine but he um

3688
02:08:55,510 --> 02:08:54,719
he was studied um extensively by a

3689
02:08:58,950 --> 02:08:55,520
neurologist

3690
02:09:02,149 --> 02:08:58,960
um he he died

3691
02:09:05,350 --> 02:09:02,159
he's dead now but but okay but

3692
02:09:06,870 --> 02:09:05,360
but he was a great cook um everything

3693
02:09:07,430 --> 02:09:06,880
that he tasted that's interesting that's

3694
02:09:09,830 --> 02:09:07,440
interesting

3695
02:09:10,790 --> 02:09:09,840
he felt with his hands so mint was a

3696
02:09:13,910 --> 02:09:10,800
tall

3697
02:09:15,350 --> 02:09:13,920
cold smooth column of glass he could

3698
02:09:16,950 --> 02:09:15,360
feel it he could feel the weight of it

3699
02:09:18,390 --> 02:09:16,960
he could feel the the coldness of the

3700
02:09:19,910 --> 02:09:18,400
surface he could feel the smoothness of

3701
02:09:22,310 --> 02:09:19,920
the surface with his hand

3702
02:09:23,830 --> 02:09:22,320
angostura bitters which is a something

3703
02:09:26,550 --> 02:09:23,840
you put in drinks

3704
02:09:28,310 --> 02:09:26,560
felt like a basket of ivy he could feel

3705
02:09:29,510 --> 02:09:28,320
the leaves the sponginess the texture

3706
02:09:32,550 --> 02:09:29,520
the warmth

3707
02:09:34,069 --> 02:09:32,560
so it was a very rich sensory experience

3708
02:09:37,669 --> 02:09:34,079
that he had

3709
02:09:39,030 --> 02:09:37,679
and so you and i don't have

3710
02:09:40,709 --> 02:09:39,040
most of us don't have those experiences

3711
02:09:42,629 --> 02:09:40,719
when we cook he did

3712
02:09:46,390 --> 02:09:42,639
and it allowed him to be an exceptional

3713
02:09:49,030 --> 02:09:46,400
cook he had this other way of of

3714
02:09:49,510 --> 02:09:49,040
dealing with complex tastes when he was

3715
02:09:52,229 --> 02:09:49,520
putting

3716
02:09:54,149 --> 02:09:52,239
you know foods together so so that

3717
02:09:57,589 --> 02:09:54,159
raises your question really really

3718
02:09:59,830 --> 02:09:57,599
sharply why is it that we experience

3719
02:10:01,109 --> 02:09:59,840
when we put something on our tongue why

3720
02:10:04,229 --> 02:10:01,119
do we experience it as

3721
02:10:05,750 --> 02:10:04,239
what we call taste saltiness sugar you

3722
02:10:07,350 --> 02:10:05,760
know sweetness and so forth

3723
02:10:09,189 --> 02:10:07,360
why don't we all experience it like

3724
02:10:11,189 --> 02:10:09,199
michael watson did as

3725
02:10:12,310 --> 02:10:11,199
shapes that we feel with our hands in

3726
02:10:15,189 --> 02:10:12,320
space

3727
02:10:15,510 --> 02:10:15,199
now what was what's interesting is that

3728
02:10:19,589 --> 02:10:15,520
there

3729
02:10:21,510 --> 02:10:19,599
kind of homomorphism

3730
02:10:23,030 --> 02:10:21,520
that you could write down mathematically

3731
02:10:24,629 --> 02:10:23,040
between the shapes

3732
02:10:26,310 --> 02:10:24,639
and the textures and the weights and so

3733
02:10:29,510 --> 02:10:26,320
forth he felt with his hands

3734
02:10:31,510 --> 02:10:29,520
and the experiences of taste

3735
02:10:32,870 --> 02:10:31,520
that we all feel so so there's probably

3736
02:10:36,310 --> 02:10:32,880
some homomorphism that

3737
02:10:37,910 --> 02:10:36,320
some mapping some dictionary between

3738
02:10:39,830 --> 02:10:37,920
what he felt with his hand and what we

3739
02:10:40,870 --> 02:10:39,840
taste uh what we experienced with her

3740
02:10:42,629 --> 02:10:40,880
taste

3741
02:10:45,750 --> 02:10:42,639
and and that's why your question is so

3742
02:10:49,350 --> 02:10:45,760
difficult in in many cases

3743
02:10:52,069 --> 02:10:49,360
from a functional point of view

3744
02:10:53,750 --> 02:10:52,079
the details of exactly why you have that

3745
02:10:57,589 --> 02:10:53,760
experience

3746
02:10:59,189 --> 02:10:57,599
don't matter lots of other kinds of qual

3747
02:11:01,510 --> 02:10:59,199
qualitative experiences could have the

3748
02:11:02,310 --> 02:11:01,520
same functional structure as those

3749
02:11:04,790 --> 02:11:02,320
experiences

3750
02:11:05,990 --> 02:11:04,800
so in fact you count them in one of your

3751
02:11:07,350 --> 02:11:06,000
papers you count the amount of

3752
02:11:11,189 --> 02:11:07,360
homomorphisms

3753
02:11:13,669 --> 02:11:11,199
that's right which which makes me wonder

3754
02:11:16,229 --> 02:11:13,679
like erase like why why this and not

3755
02:11:19,589 --> 02:11:16,239
another given that there are so many

3756
02:11:20,069 --> 02:11:19,599
homomorphisms so here's the best i

3757
02:11:22,390 --> 02:11:20,079
mentioned

3758
02:11:23,189 --> 02:11:22,400
okay this is the best i've got so far on

3759
02:11:24,870 --> 02:11:23,199
this right

3760
02:11:26,470 --> 02:11:24,880
so you so first of all i just wanted to

3761
02:11:28,790 --> 02:11:26,480
say hats off you asked a really

3762
02:11:29,669 --> 02:11:28,800
good good question it's a really tough

3763
02:11:32,629 --> 02:11:29,679
question and this

3764
02:11:33,350 --> 02:11:32,639
synesthesia thing really makes it clear

3765
02:11:37,589 --> 02:11:33,360
how

3766
02:11:44,470 --> 02:11:40,790
the only idea i've got right now

3767
02:11:46,310 --> 02:11:44,480
that i think is interesting enough

3768
02:11:48,709 --> 02:11:46,320
is based on girdle's incompleteness

3769
02:11:50,709 --> 02:11:48,719
theorem great

3770
02:11:52,790 --> 02:11:50,719
familiar with this girl so yeah yeah i'm

3771
02:11:55,510 --> 02:11:52,800
gonna ask you about that later yeah

3772
02:11:56,470 --> 02:11:55,520
right so girdles incompleteness theorem

3773
02:11:59,910 --> 02:11:56,480
um

3774
02:12:01,109 --> 02:11:59,920
in intuitively basically says that

3775
02:12:02,629 --> 02:12:01,119
there's no end

3776
02:12:05,430 --> 02:12:02,639
to the exploration of mathematical

3777
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:08,709
and

3778
02:12:16,149 --> 02:12:12,870
if we take consciousness as fundamental

3779
02:12:17,589 --> 02:12:16,159
as as i'm proposing then there's only

3780
02:12:19,270 --> 02:12:17,599
one thing that mathematical structure

3781
02:12:21,189 --> 02:12:19,280
could be about

3782
02:12:22,870 --> 02:12:21,199
which is consciousness conscious

3783
02:12:27,350 --> 02:12:22,880
experiences

3784
02:12:28,790 --> 02:12:27,360
and so in that context girdles

3785
02:12:29,990 --> 02:12:28,800
incompleteness theorem would i would

3786
02:12:31,830 --> 02:12:30,000
interpret as saying that there's an

3787
02:12:34,709 --> 02:12:31,840
infinite variety

3788
02:12:36,470 --> 02:12:34,719
of kinds of conscious experience that

3789
02:12:38,310 --> 02:12:36,480
are out there of possible structures of

3790
02:12:39,990 --> 02:12:38,320
conscious experience

3791
02:12:41,350 --> 02:12:40,000
and for each kind of structure that

3792
02:12:42,790 --> 02:12:41,360
there is there's an infinite variety of

3793
02:12:45,350 --> 02:12:42,800
conscious experiences that all share

3794
02:12:47,589 --> 02:12:45,360
that structure

3795
02:12:48,709 --> 02:12:47,599
right so i would so i would call this

3796
02:12:51,990 --> 02:12:48,719
girls candy store

3797
02:12:54,790 --> 02:12:52,000
this infinite variety of possible

3798
02:12:57,270 --> 02:12:54,800
structures of conscious experiences

3799
02:12:58,709 --> 02:12:57,280
and with each with for each structure

3800
02:13:00,470 --> 02:12:58,719
probably an infinite variety of

3801
02:13:03,830 --> 02:13:00,480
conscious experiences that that share

3802
02:13:08,149 --> 02:13:03,840
that structure so this very very rich

3803
02:13:09,669 --> 02:13:08,159
and the goal of consciousness then on

3804
02:13:11,589 --> 02:13:09,679
this theory would be

3805
02:13:13,350 --> 02:13:11,599
to explore girdle's candy store that's

3806
02:13:15,669 --> 02:13:13,360
what consciousness is up to

3807
02:13:17,030 --> 02:13:15,679
girdle basically his incompleteness

3808
02:13:19,990 --> 02:13:17,040
theorem is saying

3809
02:13:21,910 --> 02:13:20,000
no matter how much mathematics you have

3810
02:13:23,350 --> 02:13:21,920
you haven't even begun

3811
02:13:25,589 --> 02:13:23,360
no matter how much structure you've

3812
02:13:27,430 --> 02:13:25,599
explored you've not even begun

3813
02:13:29,589 --> 02:13:27,440
because there's endless endless

3814
02:13:31,589 --> 02:13:29,599
exploration in some sense

3815
02:13:34,229 --> 02:13:31,599
god could never know it all there would

3816
02:13:36,149 --> 02:13:34,239
be and so god has endless

3817
02:13:37,669 --> 02:13:36,159
whatever you think about god there's an

3818
02:13:40,629 --> 02:13:37,679
endless structure

3819
02:13:42,149 --> 02:13:40,639
for even god to explore right and so

3820
02:13:45,270 --> 02:13:42,159
that

3821
02:13:46,310 --> 02:13:45,280
endless exploration of all the rich

3822
02:13:49,270 --> 02:13:46,320
varieties and

3823
02:13:50,470 --> 02:13:49,280
it's it's here i don't know here i don't

3824
02:13:53,669 --> 02:13:50,480
know how to think about it yet

3825
02:13:56,470 --> 02:13:53,679
is it an exploration

3826
02:13:56,830 --> 02:13:56,480
of a pre-existing candy store or is it

3827
02:14:00,470 --> 02:13:56,840
an

3828
02:14:03,270 --> 02:14:00,480
endless store

3829
02:14:04,069 --> 02:14:03,280
my my feeling right now is it's an

3830
02:14:06,950 --> 02:14:04,079
invention

3831
02:14:08,709 --> 02:14:06,960
that girdle is telling us girdles

3832
02:14:11,430 --> 02:14:08,719
incompleteness theorem is saying

3833
02:14:13,510 --> 02:14:11,440
there's an infinite variety of

3834
02:14:15,189 --> 02:14:13,520
structures to be invented

3835
02:14:16,790 --> 02:14:15,199
and then in the context of consciousness

3836
02:14:18,310 --> 02:14:16,800
i interpret it as saying

3837
02:14:21,750 --> 02:14:18,320
an infinite variety of conscious

3838
02:14:25,030 --> 02:14:21,760
experiences to be

3839
02:14:26,870 --> 02:14:25,040
invented i think it's invented not

3840
02:14:28,870 --> 02:14:26,880
explored you know in terms of

3841
02:14:31,510 --> 02:14:28,880
pre-existing conscious experiences

3842
02:14:33,750 --> 02:14:31,520
but there i must say my my intuitions at

3843
02:14:35,510 --> 02:14:33,760
this point fail me i don't know

3844
02:14:36,950 --> 02:14:35,520
okay let's go even further off the deep

3845
02:14:38,709 --> 02:14:36,960
end sure you're

3846
02:14:41,189 --> 02:14:38,719
completely allowed to speculate i'm not

3847
02:14:43,830 --> 02:14:41,199
michael schumer i'm not gonna

3848
02:14:45,669 --> 02:14:43,840
throw skepticism at you skepticism to

3849
02:14:50,390 --> 02:14:45,679
you straight out the gate

3850
02:14:53,589 --> 02:14:50,400
what where in your model does

3851
02:14:56,790 --> 02:14:53,599
god lie well

3852
02:14:58,550 --> 02:14:56,800
it's the the word god

3853
02:15:00,229 --> 02:14:58,560
is something that's been used in various

3854
02:15:01,350 --> 02:15:00,239
forms for thousands of years by human

3855
02:15:03,430 --> 02:15:01,360
beings

3856
02:15:04,709 --> 02:15:03,440
and it's never been precisely defined

3857
02:15:06,470 --> 02:15:04,719
right

3858
02:15:07,669 --> 02:15:06,480
never been precisely defined there's

3859
02:15:09,669 --> 02:15:07,679
there's quite a few of those words

3860
02:15:13,030 --> 02:15:09,679
causality free will identity

3861
02:15:14,069 --> 02:15:13,040
god slippery slippery but they all might

3862
02:15:15,910 --> 02:15:14,079
be related

3863
02:15:17,910 --> 02:15:15,920
but we don't kill each other over our

3864
02:15:19,430 --> 02:15:17,920
differences about the word causality

3865
02:15:21,270 --> 02:15:19,440
we do kill each other over our

3866
02:15:24,149 --> 02:15:21,280
differences about the word god

3867
02:15:24,790 --> 02:15:24,159
and we then so that's a particularly

3868
02:15:27,030 --> 02:15:24,800
troublesome

3869
02:15:29,270 --> 02:15:27,040
problem that we have that that we think

3870
02:15:31,270 --> 02:15:29,280
that's a very very important word

3871
02:15:32,790 --> 02:15:31,280
and in many cases in human history we've

3872
02:15:33,830 --> 02:15:32,800
proven that we're willing to kill

3873
02:15:36,229 --> 02:15:33,840
millions of people

3874
02:15:37,830 --> 02:15:36,239
who disagree with us about what we mean

3875
02:15:40,550 --> 02:15:37,840
by that word

3876
02:15:42,470 --> 02:15:40,560
and the remarkable thing is that's when

3877
02:15:45,510 --> 02:15:42,480
there's no precise definition

3878
02:15:47,109 --> 02:15:45,520
so i would like to propose a precise

3879
02:15:49,750 --> 02:15:47,119
definition of god

3880
02:15:51,510 --> 02:15:49,760
all right let's hear it and of course

3881
02:15:55,430 --> 02:15:51,520
i'm wrong

3882
02:15:56,629 --> 02:15:55,440
have something on the table so that we

3883
02:15:59,189 --> 02:15:56,639
can now

3884
02:16:00,550 --> 02:15:59,199
begin to figure out why it's wrong so i

3885
02:16:01,270 --> 02:16:00,560
have this definition of a conscious

3886
02:16:04,790 --> 02:16:01,280
agent

3887
02:16:07,669 --> 02:16:04,800
i'll just propose that a con that god is

3888
02:16:08,229 --> 02:16:07,679
any conscious agent that has an infinite

3889
02:16:12,390 --> 02:16:08,239
set of

3890
02:16:15,030 --> 02:16:12,400
of possible conscious experiences

3891
02:16:16,709 --> 02:16:15,040
start there now of course i'm wrong but

3892
02:16:19,510 --> 02:16:16,719
now the fun part is

3893
02:16:20,629 --> 02:16:19,520
where what's wrong with it now oh wait

3894
02:16:22,149 --> 02:16:20,639
that to me sounds like there could be

3895
02:16:24,149 --> 02:16:22,159
multiple guns

3896
02:16:25,430 --> 02:16:24,159
because you could have multiple agents

3897
02:16:28,470 --> 02:16:25,440
that's for infinite sets

3898
02:16:30,470 --> 02:16:28,480
that's exactly right one so now

3899
02:16:32,230 --> 02:16:30,480
by the way with that definition it may

3900
02:16:34,549 --> 02:16:32,240
end up being a theorem

3901
02:16:35,910 --> 02:16:34,559
that polytheism is true not monotheism

3902
02:16:38,790 --> 02:16:35,920
but so what but notice

3903
02:16:39,830 --> 02:16:38,800
all of a sudden that we we get this

3904
02:16:42,070 --> 02:16:39,840
thing where

3905
02:16:44,230 --> 02:16:42,080
we're now i gave you a definition of god

3906
02:16:46,389 --> 02:16:44,240
and you immediately saw an implication

3907
02:16:48,230 --> 02:16:46,399
try that with with most other religious

3908
02:16:49,429 --> 02:16:48,240
views of god that they're not precise

3909
02:16:51,589 --> 02:16:49,439
enough

3910
02:16:53,110 --> 02:16:51,599
to to have these kinds of inferential

3911
02:16:53,990 --> 02:16:53,120
implications where we can actually what

3912
02:16:56,070 --> 02:16:54,000
if someone said

3913
02:16:57,830 --> 02:16:56,080
okay i can save monotheism by saying

3914
02:16:59,270 --> 02:16:57,840
that god is the amalgam of all the

3915
02:17:01,190 --> 02:16:59,280
conscious agents

3916
02:17:02,629 --> 02:17:01,200
and that would be that would be another

3917
02:17:04,389 --> 02:17:02,639
way to to go at it

3918
02:17:05,669 --> 02:17:04,399
and you might not and that might be the

3919
02:17:07,110 --> 02:17:05,679
critique that you give of my first

3920
02:17:09,190 --> 02:17:07,120
definition of god it would be my

3921
02:17:12,709 --> 02:17:09,200
critique of my first definition of god

3922
02:17:15,589 --> 02:17:12,719
would be to say well no let god

3923
02:17:16,629 --> 02:17:15,599
be the top conscious agent the the the

3924
02:17:18,870 --> 02:17:16,639
one that's the unit

3925
02:17:20,469 --> 02:17:18,880
um you know the super saiyan nation the

3926
02:17:21,429 --> 02:17:20,479
combination of all the other agents that

3927
02:17:23,349 --> 02:17:21,439
exist

3928
02:17:25,349 --> 02:17:23,359
but then we may turn out as we look at

3929
02:17:26,150 --> 02:17:25,359
the dynamics of conscious agents and the

3930
02:17:28,389 --> 02:17:26,160
combination

3931
02:17:30,150 --> 02:17:28,399
we may find that there is no at any

3932
02:17:32,150 --> 02:17:30,160
moment there may not be a single

3933
02:17:33,190 --> 02:17:32,160
maximum so it may not be a lattice where

3934
02:17:34,950 --> 02:17:33,200
there's one peak

3935
02:17:37,030 --> 02:17:34,960
to the whole network there may be

3936
02:17:40,309 --> 02:17:37,040
multiple and and no single

3937
02:17:41,990 --> 02:17:40,319
maximal at any one at any one moment in

3938
02:17:44,549 --> 02:17:42,000
the dynamics so so again

3939
02:17:46,389 --> 02:17:44,559
it would be a matter of and it may turn

3940
02:17:47,910 --> 02:17:46,399
out to be a

3941
02:17:49,910 --> 02:17:47,920
property of the kind of dynamics of

3942
02:17:52,150 --> 02:17:49,920
conscious agents that you propose

3943
02:17:53,750 --> 02:17:52,160
that in these kinds of dynamics it's a

3944
02:17:55,110 --> 02:17:53,760
polytheism and this one there's a

3945
02:17:58,709 --> 02:17:55,120
monotheism

3946
02:18:02,230 --> 02:17:58,719
so so that's what's so fun about this is

3947
02:18:04,309 --> 02:18:02,240
now all of a sudden we're

3948
02:18:05,669 --> 02:18:04,319
we're already engaging by the way like

3949
02:18:07,509 --> 02:18:05,679
this on on

3950
02:18:09,190 --> 02:18:07,519
the word god in a way that we could

3951
02:18:11,669 --> 02:18:09,200
never before engaged

3952
02:18:13,190 --> 02:18:11,679
this is now a technical term now and

3953
02:18:14,709 --> 02:18:13,200
again of course

3954
02:18:17,509 --> 02:18:14,719
everything that we've said so far is

3955
02:18:20,790 --> 02:18:17,519
almost surely deeply wrong

3956
02:18:22,709 --> 02:18:20,800
but it's precise and so we can find out

3957
02:18:24,950 --> 02:18:22,719
precisely where it's wrong

3958
02:18:26,070 --> 02:18:24,960
and and by the way notice now we're in a

3959
02:18:29,509 --> 02:18:26,080
very different space

3960
02:18:31,190 --> 02:18:29,519
i'm not tempted to kill you or or hurt

3961
02:18:33,110 --> 02:18:31,200
you because you disagree with me

3962
02:18:35,429 --> 02:18:33,120
i'm rather tempted to listen to your

3963
02:18:37,110 --> 02:18:35,439
ideas and go oh wow that's really cool

3964
02:18:38,709 --> 02:18:37,120
i hadn't thought about that let me let

3965
02:18:40,469 --> 02:18:38,719
me rethink my position

3966
02:18:42,549 --> 02:18:40,479
it's a very very different kind of thing

3967
02:18:44,709 --> 02:18:42,559
and so can we

3968
02:18:46,790 --> 02:18:44,719
i mean it seems that the word god is

3969
02:18:48,950 --> 02:18:46,800
very very important to us

3970
02:18:49,830 --> 02:18:48,960
instead of having it be an ambiguous

3971
02:18:51,589 --> 02:18:49,840
term that we

3972
02:18:53,030 --> 02:18:51,599
fight to the death over and hate each

3973
02:18:56,070 --> 02:18:53,040
other over

3974
02:19:03,030 --> 02:18:59,429
since we think it's so important

3975
02:19:04,549 --> 02:19:03,040
it's important enough to be precise

3976
02:19:05,669 --> 02:19:04,559
if it's that important to us then it's

3977
02:19:08,230 --> 02:19:05,679
important enough that we should be

3978
02:19:14,469 --> 02:19:08,240
precise about what we mean

3979
02:19:15,830 --> 02:19:14,479
then we can start to have a dialogue and

3980
02:19:17,349 --> 02:19:15,840
try to refine it

3981
02:19:18,870 --> 02:19:17,359
and and come to some kind of mutual

3982
02:19:20,790 --> 02:19:18,880
understanding

3983
02:19:22,070 --> 02:19:20,800
so so that's sort of the scientific

3984
02:19:26,549 --> 02:19:22,080
attitude of

3985
02:19:28,389 --> 02:19:26,559
um be precise so that we

3986
02:19:29,830 --> 02:19:28,399
don't get stuck in the same thoughts

3987
02:19:30,230 --> 02:19:29,840
that we've had for thousands of years we

3988
02:19:32,629 --> 02:19:30,240
don't

3989
02:19:35,190 --> 02:19:32,639
end up being dogmatic defenders of

3990
02:19:39,669 --> 02:19:35,200
something that's not even well defined

3991
02:19:42,230 --> 02:19:39,679
rather we it's it's a sense of humility

3992
02:19:42,790 --> 02:19:42,240
these are the best ideas that i and my

3993
02:19:45,910 --> 02:19:42,800
tradition

3994
02:19:46,549 --> 02:19:45,920
have had so far about god there's

3995
02:19:48,950 --> 02:19:46,559
probably

3996
02:19:51,830 --> 02:19:48,960
a lot of insight in those ideas and

3997
02:19:54,950 --> 02:19:51,840
there's probably some mistakes

3998
02:19:58,150 --> 02:19:54,960
let me listen to your ideas

3999
02:20:02,150 --> 02:19:58,160
let's have you listen to my ideas

4000
02:20:04,870 --> 02:20:02,160
and can we then get to a new and deeper

4001
02:20:06,550 --> 02:20:04,880
and more precise notion of god

4002
02:20:08,790 --> 02:20:06,560
since we agree that this seems to be an

4003
02:20:12,070 --> 02:20:08,800
important concept for us

4004
02:20:13,990 --> 02:20:12,080
can we together work in humility

4005
02:20:15,670 --> 02:20:14,000
and both admit up front that maybe we

4006
02:20:17,270 --> 02:20:15,680
don't have it quite right

4007
02:20:18,710 --> 02:20:17,280
that's sort of the scientific attitude

4008
02:20:23,270 --> 02:20:18,720
about this thing being pre

4009
02:20:26,870 --> 02:20:23,280
being precise is an ultimate act

4010
02:20:28,469 --> 02:20:26,880
of humility on the one hand because

4011
02:20:30,230 --> 02:20:28,479
you're making yourself vulnerable to

4012
02:20:32,870 --> 02:20:30,240
being shown wrong

4013
02:20:34,469 --> 02:20:32,880
but it's also the ultimate act of true

4014
02:20:38,070 --> 02:20:34,479
inquisitiveness

4015
02:20:39,990 --> 02:20:38,080
it's saying this is precisely the best

4016
02:20:42,150 --> 02:20:40,000
idea i've got so far

4017
02:20:43,750 --> 02:20:42,160
but i really want to understand so i'm

4018
02:20:45,750 --> 02:20:43,760
stating it precisely

4019
02:20:46,870 --> 02:20:45,760
so i can figure out where i'm wrong and

4020
02:20:49,110 --> 02:20:46,880
then we can move on

4021
02:20:50,550 --> 02:20:49,120
into a deeper inquiry so that's what i

4022
02:20:51,590 --> 02:20:50,560
would like to see in the in the

4023
02:20:54,309 --> 02:20:51,600
discussion

4024
02:20:55,830 --> 02:20:54,319
of god i would love to see in this sense

4025
02:21:28,230 --> 02:20:55,840
a

4026
02:21:31,670 --> 02:21:28,240
terms how will we ever

4027
02:21:33,830 --> 02:21:31,680
make progress on the deeper questions

4028
02:21:34,710 --> 02:21:33,840
okay we're in the defend already let's

4029
02:21:38,830 --> 02:21:34,720
go to the

4030
02:21:40,950 --> 02:21:38,840
mariana trench what happens when you

4031
02:21:44,710 --> 02:21:40,960
die well

4032
02:21:47,110 --> 02:21:44,720
if you're a physicalist

4033
02:21:48,550 --> 02:21:47,120
it's quite clear right your

4034
02:21:52,389 --> 02:21:48,560
consciousness

4035
02:21:55,750 --> 02:21:52,399
is entirely the product

4036
02:21:57,830 --> 02:21:55,760
of your brain or your embodied

4037
02:21:59,030 --> 02:21:57,840
brain i mean some of my colleagues will

4038
02:22:02,070 --> 02:21:59,040
will emphasize

4039
02:22:02,950 --> 02:22:02,080
the cycle between sort of an inactive

4040
02:22:04,230 --> 02:22:02,960
point of view that

4041
02:22:05,670 --> 02:22:04,240
it's not just the brain it's the brain

4042
02:22:06,230 --> 02:22:05,680
and the body in the environment in that

4043
02:22:14,309 --> 02:22:06,240
loop

4044
02:22:16,389 --> 02:22:14,319
therefore your consciousness stops and

4045
02:22:18,150 --> 02:22:16,399
so from that point of view it's it's

4046
02:22:19,510 --> 02:22:18,160
the prediction is quite clear there's

4047
02:22:23,590 --> 02:22:19,520
nothing that survives death

4048
02:22:27,270 --> 02:22:23,600
um from you that that i'm proposing here

4049
02:22:30,950 --> 02:22:27,280
space time itself is not fundamental

4050
02:22:34,550 --> 02:22:33,830
including our conscious experiences

4051
02:22:38,870 --> 02:22:34,560
instead

4052
02:22:44,950 --> 02:22:38,880
it's a virtual reality headset

4053
02:22:51,670 --> 02:22:48,070
does not have to die

4054
02:22:55,270 --> 02:22:51,680
when the body dies but as i said

4055
02:22:57,510 --> 02:22:55,280
the self is not fundamental in the

4056
02:22:59,750 --> 02:22:57,520
theory that i'm developing

4057
02:23:03,030 --> 02:22:59,760
the self is just a data structure like

4058
02:23:05,110 --> 02:23:03,040
space time is a data structure

4059
02:23:06,870 --> 02:23:05,120
so from the point of view that i'm

4060
02:23:10,309 --> 02:23:06,880
working on right now

4061
02:23:13,030 --> 02:23:10,319
my death does not mean that

4062
02:23:14,309 --> 02:23:13,040
my consciousness disappears but myself

4063
02:23:15,750 --> 02:23:14,319
may

4064
02:23:18,230 --> 02:23:15,760
i don't know yet i mean that's going to

4065
02:23:20,389 --> 02:23:18,240
be something i want to work on in

4066
02:23:21,830 --> 02:23:20,399
this theory the self just being a data

4067
02:23:23,190 --> 02:23:21,840
structure maybe that data structure

4068
02:23:25,430 --> 02:23:23,200
dissolves

4069
02:23:26,790 --> 02:23:25,440
um or maybe it's like

4070
02:23:30,550 --> 02:23:26,800
[Music]

4071
02:23:33,910 --> 02:23:30,560
what happens in metamorphosis

4072
02:23:36,150 --> 02:23:33,920
a caterpillar becoming a butterfly

4073
02:23:38,389 --> 02:23:36,160
right in some sense there's not much

4074
02:23:40,230 --> 02:23:38,399
recognizable

4075
02:23:42,389 --> 02:23:40,240
left of the caterpillar when the

4076
02:23:46,469 --> 02:23:42,399
butterfly emerges

4077
02:23:50,150 --> 02:23:46,479
um there is a a continuity

4078
02:23:53,910 --> 02:23:50,160
but you know the butterfly has

4079
02:23:56,070 --> 02:23:53,920
only six legs the the caterpillar

4080
02:23:57,270 --> 02:23:56,080
had quite a few more the caterpillar

4081
02:23:59,190 --> 02:23:57,280
eats leaves

4082
02:24:01,270 --> 02:23:59,200
the butterfly can't eat leaves the

4083
02:24:02,710 --> 02:24:01,280
butterfly drinks nectar the caterpillar

4084
02:24:04,630 --> 02:24:02,720
never drank nectar

4085
02:24:06,309 --> 02:24:04,640
the butterfly has wings caterpillar has

4086
02:24:07,830 --> 02:24:06,319
no concept of wings

4087
02:24:10,309 --> 02:24:07,840
they're they're the same creature at

4088
02:24:13,110 --> 02:24:10,319
different stages but they're utterly

4089
02:24:13,750 --> 02:24:13,120
alien and and maybe the thing that

4090
02:24:15,910 --> 02:24:13,760
survives

4091
02:24:17,670 --> 02:24:15,920
death is as different from me as a

4092
02:24:20,309 --> 02:24:17,680
butterfly is from a caterpillar

4093
02:24:21,030 --> 02:24:20,319
um and it you know so i i just don't

4094
02:24:24,150 --> 02:24:21,040
know so

4095
02:24:25,429 --> 02:24:24,160
um i'm still on that i'll be

4096
02:24:27,429 --> 02:24:25,439
be very interested to work on the

4097
02:24:32,230 --> 02:24:27,439
mathematics and see

4098
02:24:36,070 --> 02:24:34,469
that maybe that may be helpful here so

4099
02:24:38,070 --> 02:24:36,080
suppose you go to a virtual reality

4100
02:24:40,950 --> 02:24:38,080
arcade with some friends

4101
02:24:41,990 --> 02:24:40,960
to place a virtual volleyball you put on

4102
02:24:44,389 --> 02:24:42,000
your headset and bodysuit

4103
02:24:45,110 --> 02:24:44,399
and you see yourself emerge immersed in

4104
02:24:51,349 --> 02:24:45,120
a

4105
02:24:53,270 --> 02:24:51,359
cross the net

4106
02:24:54,630 --> 02:24:53,280
and so you serve the virtual volleyball

4107
02:24:56,150 --> 02:24:54,640
and you guys play for a while

4108
02:24:58,630 --> 02:24:56,160
and then one of your friends you know

4109
02:24:59,590 --> 02:24:58,640
bob says excuse me i'm thirsty i'm gonna

4110
02:25:01,349 --> 02:24:59,600
go get a drink

4111
02:25:02,630 --> 02:25:01,359
and he takes off his headset in his body

4112
02:25:07,429 --> 02:25:02,640
suit to go get a drink

4113
02:25:11,030 --> 02:25:07,439
and his avatar collapses on the sand

4114
02:25:14,150 --> 02:25:11,040
well within that virtual reality

4115
02:25:15,750 --> 02:25:14,160
he's effectively dead but

4116
02:25:17,190 --> 02:25:15,760
of course bob isn't dead he just stepped

4117
02:25:20,230 --> 02:25:17,200
out of the interface

4118
02:25:21,830 --> 02:25:20,240
and so there's the sense in the theory

4119
02:25:25,590 --> 02:25:21,840
that i'm developing

4120
02:25:28,630 --> 02:25:25,600
that your body is just an avatar

4121
02:25:29,750 --> 02:25:28,640
the death of your body just like the

4122
02:25:31,349 --> 02:25:29,760
death of bob

4123
02:25:33,110 --> 02:25:31,359
in the virtual reality game is not the

4124
02:25:33,830 --> 02:25:33,120
death of bob bob just was not getting a

4125
02:25:35,910 --> 02:25:33,840
drink

4126
02:25:38,870 --> 02:25:35,920
so death may just be stepping out of the

4127
02:25:40,150 --> 02:25:38,880
interface but even if consciousness

4128
02:25:43,830 --> 02:25:40,160
survives

4129
02:25:45,510 --> 02:25:43,840
different from the consciousness that

4130
02:25:46,870 --> 02:25:45,520
you now have as

4131
02:25:48,790 --> 02:25:46,880
you could imagine a butterfly being

4132
02:25:51,990 --> 02:25:48,800
different from a caterpillar

4133
02:25:53,590 --> 02:25:52,000
even more in the analogy of bob going to

4134
02:25:54,630 --> 02:25:53,600
get a drink there's a retainment of

4135
02:25:57,910 --> 02:25:54,640
memory

4136
02:26:00,150 --> 02:25:57,920
in your model i recall you

4137
02:26:01,349 --> 02:26:00,160
saying earlier in the conversation that

4138
02:26:02,790 --> 02:26:01,359
you don't have a

4139
02:26:04,630 --> 02:26:02,800
a theory for memory or there is no

4140
02:26:08,150 --> 02:26:04,640
memory i could be wrong you might but

4141
02:26:11,349 --> 02:26:08,160
regardless does memory survive death

4142
02:26:12,469 --> 02:26:11,359
is it possible memories are data

4143
02:26:15,830 --> 02:26:12,479
structures as well

4144
02:26:18,230 --> 02:26:15,840
so those data structures

4145
02:26:19,830 --> 02:26:18,240
may may or may not be preserved so that

4146
02:26:20,710 --> 02:26:19,840
would be another aspect of this whole

4147
02:26:23,429 --> 02:26:20,720
thing but

4148
02:26:23,990 --> 02:26:23,439
right now i have no reason to say up

4149
02:26:26,230 --> 02:26:24,000
front

4150
02:26:27,270 --> 02:26:26,240
that i would claim that they necessarily

4151
02:26:29,429 --> 02:26:27,280
are preserved so

4152
02:26:31,349 --> 02:26:29,439
i can't claim that that your current

4153
02:26:32,830 --> 02:26:31,359
notion of self would be preserved

4154
02:26:34,710 --> 02:26:32,840
or your current memories would be

4155
02:26:37,030 --> 02:26:34,720
preserved and

4156
02:26:37,990 --> 02:26:37,040
the issue would then be could i build

4157
02:26:41,190 --> 02:26:38,000
models

4158
02:26:43,429 --> 02:26:41,200
of conscious agents in which

4159
02:26:44,389 --> 02:26:43,439
i first modeled what the death process

4160
02:26:45,830 --> 02:26:44,399
is as

4161
02:26:48,230 --> 02:26:45,840
in terms of stepping out of a particular

4162
02:26:49,910 --> 02:26:48,240
interface and can i find models

4163
02:26:52,070 --> 02:26:49,920
so but but notice what i'm saying here

4164
02:26:53,670 --> 02:26:52,080
now i'm actually trying to model the

4165
02:26:55,670 --> 02:26:53,680
death process

4166
02:26:57,349 --> 02:26:55,680
with a mathematical model in terms of

4167
02:26:58,710 --> 02:26:57,359
conscious agents and then i'm asking a

4168
02:27:01,990 --> 02:26:58,720
technical question

4169
02:27:02,870 --> 02:27:02,000
could certain data structures self data

4170
02:27:05,349 --> 02:27:02,880
structure

4171
02:27:06,469 --> 02:27:05,359
memory my own personal episodic memory

4172
02:27:09,830 --> 02:27:06,479
data structures

4173
02:27:12,230 --> 02:27:09,840
be retained

4174
02:27:14,150 --> 02:27:12,240
in this other process that that is

4175
02:27:15,510 --> 02:27:14,160
leading to the extraction of

4176
02:27:17,190 --> 02:27:15,520
a conscious agent out of a particular

4177
02:27:19,349 --> 02:27:17,200
interface

4178
02:27:20,870 --> 02:27:19,359
that i don't know the answer to it but

4179
02:27:22,230 --> 02:27:20,880
for me it's a technical question and a

4180
02:27:26,550 --> 02:27:22,240
really interesting one

4181
02:27:28,070 --> 02:27:26,560
and and one that i don't think is beyond

4182
02:27:29,910 --> 02:27:28,080
our scope i think it's one that we can

4183
02:27:30,950 --> 02:27:29,920
address we can try to find what i like

4184
02:27:35,110 --> 02:27:30,960
about

4185
02:27:36,950 --> 02:27:35,120
reminds me of newtonian approximation

4186
02:27:38,469 --> 02:27:36,960
where you just guess at what one of the

4187
02:27:40,710 --> 02:27:38,479
roots are and you're

4188
02:27:42,469 --> 02:27:40,720
knowing you know full well that it's

4189
02:27:44,150 --> 02:27:42,479
likely to be wrong

4190
02:27:46,389 --> 02:27:44,160
but because of that guess you can get

4191
02:27:48,309 --> 02:27:46,399
closer and closer to the truth

4192
02:27:50,630 --> 02:27:48,319
that's how science works right you you

4193
02:27:52,309 --> 02:27:50,640
you guess at the foundations

4194
02:27:55,349 --> 02:27:52,319
you guess of what the right assumptions

4195
02:27:57,270 --> 02:27:55,359
are newton did a brilliant job i mean

4196
02:27:59,510 --> 02:27:57,280
he's probably one of the smartest men

4197
02:28:02,710 --> 02:27:59,520
that ever lived maybe the smartest

4198
02:28:07,030 --> 02:28:02,720
uh incredible brilliance and and

4199
02:28:11,990 --> 02:28:10,870
the new theories give i give newton as

4200
02:28:14,710 --> 02:28:12,000
an approximation

4201
02:28:16,070 --> 02:28:14,720
like well einstein gives newton as a

4202
02:28:17,030 --> 02:28:16,080
limiting case as the speed of light goes

4203
02:28:20,309 --> 02:28:17,040
to infinity

4204
02:28:23,349 --> 02:28:20,319
right newton um is wrong but but he's

4205
02:28:23,750 --> 02:28:23,359
deeply right too he had his hands on

4206
02:28:26,790 --> 02:28:23,760
something

4207
02:28:28,710 --> 02:28:26,800
so we would like to have assumptions in

4208
02:28:32,710 --> 02:28:28,720
this area of consciousness

4209
02:28:36,469 --> 02:28:34,870
but that then lead that turn all the

4210
02:28:38,309 --> 02:28:36,479
kinds of questions you're asking

4211
02:28:39,670 --> 02:28:38,319
into technical problems that we can in

4212
02:28:41,830 --> 02:28:39,680
principle solve and

4213
02:28:43,670 --> 02:28:41,840
all the questions you're asking so far

4214
02:28:45,349 --> 02:28:43,680
are ones i think that we can

4215
02:28:47,910 --> 02:28:45,359
pose as technical questions and try to

4216
02:28:51,750 --> 02:28:49,030
let's get back to girdles and

4217
02:28:55,030 --> 02:28:51,760
completeness theorem people like penrose

4218
02:28:57,110 --> 02:28:55,040
and lucas would say that

4219
02:28:59,270 --> 02:28:57,120
any system that's computational in

4220
02:29:00,630 --> 02:28:59,280
nature which yours sounds like

4221
02:29:02,389 --> 02:29:00,640
or at least it's algorithmic or

4222
02:29:04,550 --> 02:29:02,399
rule-based

4223
02:29:07,670 --> 02:29:04,560
would necessarily fail at a model of

4224
02:29:10,550 --> 02:29:07,680
consciousness because

4225
02:29:12,070 --> 02:29:10,560
within that system there are truths that

4226
02:29:15,750 --> 02:29:12,080
that system cannot see

4227
02:29:17,590 --> 02:29:15,760
as being true but we can

4228
02:29:20,830 --> 02:29:17,600
how does your how do you deal with that

4229
02:29:20,840 --> 02:29:24,550
well so

4230
02:29:31,429 --> 02:29:28,550
there are non-computable functions

4231
02:29:32,230 --> 02:29:31,439
right and this is something that penrose

4232
02:29:35,750 --> 02:29:32,240
knows quite well

4233
02:29:38,710 --> 02:29:35,760
and is focused on in some of his work so

4234
02:29:40,469 --> 02:29:38,720
in fact it's quite remarkable if you

4235
02:29:44,230 --> 02:29:40,479
just look

4236
02:29:47,590 --> 02:29:44,240
at the integers or even just the natural

4237
02:29:52,150 --> 02:29:49,750
and you ask look at all the functions

4238
02:29:55,190 --> 02:29:52,160
from the integers to the integers

4239
02:29:57,750 --> 02:29:55,200
right well it's

4240
02:29:59,349 --> 02:29:57,760
mathematicians can show that there's an

4241
02:30:00,469 --> 02:29:59,359
uncountable set of functions

4242
02:30:01,990 --> 02:30:00,479
from the integers to the integers

4243
02:30:03,670 --> 02:30:02,000
because the number of functions is the

4244
02:30:06,550 --> 02:30:03,680
power set of the integer so it's it's

4245
02:30:06,950 --> 02:30:06,560
higher cardinality than the energies so

4246
02:30:10,389 --> 02:30:06,960
it's an

4247
02:30:14,870 --> 02:30:10,399
uncountable scent but

4248
02:30:18,070 --> 02:30:14,880
turing proved that the set

4249
02:30:21,429 --> 02:30:18,080
of all computable functions

4250
02:30:26,950 --> 02:30:25,670
therefore when we look at just

4251
02:30:29,110 --> 02:30:26,960
the collection of functions from the

4252
02:30:31,349 --> 02:30:29,120
integers to the integers

4253
02:30:32,309 --> 02:30:31,359
which is uncountable what that means is

4254
02:30:36,150 --> 02:30:32,319
that

4255
02:30:37,190 --> 02:30:36,160
almost no function is computable

4256
02:30:38,870 --> 02:30:37,200
when you look at the set of all

4257
02:30:39,750 --> 02:30:38,880
functions the set of computable

4258
02:30:42,389 --> 02:30:39,760
functions

4259
02:30:44,870 --> 02:30:42,399
is probability zero for some interesting

4260
02:30:51,990 --> 02:30:48,790
so so the reason we

4261
02:30:53,590 --> 02:30:52,000
focus on computable functions is partly

4262
02:30:55,510 --> 02:30:53,600
because of our lack of imagination it's

4263
02:30:58,550 --> 02:30:55,520
hard for us to imagine

4264
02:31:00,389 --> 02:30:58,560
uncomputable functions right if you've

4265
02:31:02,070 --> 02:31:00,399
taken a class in computer science where

4266
02:31:05,429 --> 02:31:02,080
you actually have to like

4267
02:31:08,150 --> 02:31:05,439
deal with uncomputable functions um

4268
02:31:09,510 --> 02:31:08,160
you can get there you can study in a

4269
02:31:11,830 --> 02:31:09,520
non-computable function

4270
02:31:12,710 --> 02:31:11,840
but boy is it hard it really strips all

4271
02:31:15,429 --> 02:31:12,720
the gears in your head

4272
02:31:17,030 --> 02:31:15,439
it's just so hard for us but so most

4273
02:31:19,030 --> 02:31:17,040
functions are not computable

4274
02:31:20,469 --> 02:31:19,040
our brains have a hard time even

4275
02:31:23,910 --> 02:31:20,479
understanding one of them

4276
02:31:27,030 --> 02:31:23,920
so it's a real limitation of our brains

4277
02:31:34,230 --> 02:31:30,150
in my field cognitive neuroscience we're

4278
02:31:37,429 --> 02:31:34,240
giving computational theories of mind

4279
02:31:39,990 --> 02:31:37,439
there is a way to look at this to

4280
02:31:40,950 --> 02:31:40,000
what my my field is doing um and say

4281
02:31:42,070 --> 02:31:40,960
what are you guys up to

4282
02:31:44,070 --> 02:31:42,080
you're you're trying to give

4283
02:31:47,030 --> 02:31:44,080
computational theories of

4284
02:31:48,550 --> 02:31:47,040
cognition if you're if you're saying

4285
02:31:49,510 --> 02:31:48,560
that cognition is only based on

4286
02:31:50,950 --> 02:31:49,520
computation

4287
02:31:52,550 --> 02:31:50,960
you're claiming that of all the

4288
02:31:54,230 --> 02:31:52,560
functions that are available there's

4289
02:31:56,469 --> 02:31:54,240
this probability zero subset of

4290
02:31:58,550 --> 02:31:56,479
functions that that are only responsible

4291
02:32:01,030 --> 02:31:58,560
for our minds and for consciousness

4292
02:32:01,990 --> 02:32:01,040
right you know if like you know the

4293
02:32:04,790 --> 02:32:02,000
tinonian

4294
02:32:05,429 --> 02:32:04,800
coke approach of you know integrated

4295
02:32:08,950 --> 02:32:05,439
information

4296
02:32:10,950 --> 02:32:08,960
it's a computational function so why

4297
02:32:12,790 --> 02:32:10,960
should we assume that cognition in

4298
02:32:16,230 --> 02:32:12,800
general in consciousness

4299
02:32:18,389 --> 02:32:16,240
um is restricted to this probability

4300
02:32:20,950 --> 02:32:18,399
zero subset of functions

4301
02:32:21,990 --> 02:32:20,960
what what's what's the principled reason

4302
02:32:24,150 --> 02:32:22,000
for that

4303
02:32:25,429 --> 02:32:24,160
and most of my colleagues don't even

4304
02:32:26,550 --> 02:32:25,439
understand that this is an issue and

4305
02:32:27,830 --> 02:32:26,560
certainly don't have an answer for it

4306
02:32:29,510 --> 02:32:27,840
but but of course

4307
02:32:32,550 --> 02:32:29,520
penrose is an exception penrose is

4308
02:32:34,710 --> 02:32:32,560
saying he unders he understands all this

4309
02:32:36,389 --> 02:32:34,720
but but i still don't agree with what

4310
02:32:39,510 --> 02:32:36,399
where penrose goes on this right

4311
02:32:41,110 --> 02:32:39,520
penrose is is saying

4312
02:32:42,950 --> 02:32:41,120
he still wants to start with a

4313
02:32:46,389 --> 02:32:42,960
physicalist framework

4314
02:32:47,429 --> 02:32:46,399
and get consciousness to emerge by some

4315
02:32:50,870 --> 02:32:47,439
kind of

4316
02:32:51,510 --> 02:32:50,880
um objective reduction of forget about

4317
02:32:54,630 --> 02:32:51,520
that

4318
02:32:57,830 --> 02:32:54,640
i i'd say it's more fundamental the

4319
02:33:00,389 --> 02:32:57,840
w the conscious agent model looks to me

4320
02:33:02,790 --> 02:33:00,399
to be algorithmic or rule-based

4321
02:33:03,750 --> 02:33:02,800
and the statement from penrose

4322
02:33:05,270 --> 02:33:03,760
independent of whether or not

4323
02:33:06,710 --> 02:33:05,280
consciousness emerges from physicality

4324
02:33:09,590 --> 02:33:06,720
just forget about that

4325
02:33:10,389 --> 02:33:09,600
is that a rule-based system can't

4326
02:33:12,469 --> 02:33:10,399
account for

4327
02:33:14,150 --> 02:33:12,479
our conscious behavior given that we

4328
02:33:17,030 --> 02:33:14,160
have an understanding of what's

4329
02:33:17,750 --> 02:33:17,040
true but not provable within that

4330
02:33:21,910 --> 02:33:17,760
rule-based

4331
02:33:25,990 --> 02:33:21,920
we have that quality

4332
02:33:29,270 --> 02:33:26,000
our consciousness can't be relegated to

4333
02:33:30,710 --> 02:33:29,280
an algorithm which yours seems like now

4334
02:33:33,110 --> 02:33:30,720
it could just be this is rudimentary

4335
02:33:34,950 --> 02:33:33,120
form kurt i'm like i'm a step one

4336
02:33:37,030 --> 02:33:34,960
or there might be another counter and

4337
02:33:39,910 --> 02:33:37,040
i'm just curious to know what you think

4338
02:33:41,110 --> 02:33:39,920
well so again the framework of what i'm

4339
02:33:44,150 --> 02:33:41,120
doing is different from what

4340
02:33:44,790 --> 02:33:44,160
what what he's trying to do right i i'm

4341
02:33:46,870 --> 02:33:44,800
not too

4342
02:33:48,150 --> 02:33:46,880
i'm not trying to explain how

4343
02:33:50,070 --> 02:33:48,160
consciousness arises

4344
02:33:51,510 --> 02:33:50,080
i'm assuming it so consciousness is

4345
02:33:53,349 --> 02:33:51,520
given

4346
02:33:55,429 --> 02:33:53,359
now there's a question do

4347
02:33:57,670 --> 02:33:55,439
consciousnesses interact only by rule

4348
02:34:00,830 --> 02:33:57,680
right now i'm studying rules

4349
02:34:02,870 --> 02:34:00,840
and but but i'm completely open to

4350
02:34:04,389 --> 02:34:02,880
non-computational

4351
02:34:06,389 --> 02:34:04,399
modes of interaction among these

4352
02:34:08,070 --> 02:34:06,399
countries has no

4353
02:34:10,070 --> 02:34:08,080
bearing because see i'm not trying to

4354
02:34:12,790 --> 02:34:10,080
say how consciousness arises

4355
02:34:13,910 --> 02:34:12,800
i'm saying it it's it exists it's

4356
02:34:15,510 --> 02:34:13,920
fundamental

4357
02:34:17,910 --> 02:34:15,520
but the kinds of interactions the

4358
02:34:20,750 --> 02:34:17,920
consciousnesses have

4359
02:34:21,910 --> 02:34:20,760
surely if they're i don't want to

4360
02:34:24,870 --> 02:34:21,920
exclude

4361
02:34:26,469 --> 02:34:24,880
rule-based interactions but i may find

4362
02:34:27,910 --> 02:34:26,479
that i don't want to restrict to

4363
02:34:29,510 --> 02:34:27,920
rule-based interaction

4364
02:34:30,870 --> 02:34:29,520
so i'm starting with the rule-based ones

4365
02:34:31,590 --> 02:34:30,880
partly because of my background and my

4366
02:34:33,830 --> 02:34:31,600
limitations

4367
02:34:36,630 --> 02:34:33,840
but eventually i'd love to to go beyond

4368
02:34:38,469 --> 02:34:36,640
so i so i would say point well taken

4369
02:34:40,070 --> 02:34:38,479
non-computational approaches may be very

4370
02:34:41,910 --> 02:34:40,080
very interesting um

4371
02:34:43,270 --> 02:34:41,920
in this absolutely there's a cockpit of

4372
02:34:45,750 --> 02:34:43,280
scientist named jonathan

4373
02:34:49,030 --> 02:34:45,760
verveiki or john verveicky and he says

4374
02:34:52,150 --> 02:34:50,870
i i don't know if they're all orthogonal

4375
02:34:53,429 --> 02:34:52,160
they're definitely related but there's

4376
02:34:55,270 --> 02:34:53,439
four different modes of

4377
02:34:57,030 --> 02:34:55,280
knowledge and one is propositional and

4378
02:34:58,550 --> 02:34:57,040
that's what since the science since the

4379
02:35:00,550 --> 02:34:58,560
development of the scientific method

4380
02:35:02,550 --> 02:35:00,560
we've relegated our knowledge to

4381
02:35:03,830 --> 02:35:02,560
the propositions are what are true but

4382
02:35:05,349 --> 02:35:03,840
he says well there are others there's

4383
02:35:07,110 --> 02:35:05,359
participatory knowing

4384
02:35:08,469 --> 02:35:07,120
there's procedural knowledge obviously

4385
02:35:11,429 --> 02:35:08,479
like that one anyone can get

4386
02:35:12,070 --> 02:35:11,439
and then there's perspective and i'm

4387
02:35:15,510 --> 02:35:12,080
curious

4388
02:35:16,950 --> 02:35:15,520
it's like how would one even if your

4389
02:35:18,950 --> 02:35:16,960
if your theory would incorporate then

4390
02:35:20,070 --> 02:35:18,960
how the heck can you even write down

4391
02:35:23,590 --> 02:35:20,080
because this

4392
02:35:26,950 --> 02:35:23,600
notion of writing down is a proposition

4393
02:35:29,990 --> 02:35:26,960
how would one model the other three

4394
02:35:33,190 --> 02:35:30,000
fundamentally well so

4395
02:35:36,230 --> 02:35:33,200
in current neural network models

4396
02:35:40,070 --> 02:35:36,240
um the way that the network learns

4397
02:35:41,190 --> 02:35:40,080
is not by acquiring new propositions is

4398
02:35:44,150 --> 02:35:41,200
by updating

4399
02:35:45,190 --> 02:35:44,160
connection weights in the network that's

4400
02:35:48,230 --> 02:35:45,200
a procedural knowledge

4401
02:35:50,790 --> 02:35:48,240
what what the so the

4402
02:35:53,270 --> 02:35:50,800
the history of ai i i was in the

4403
02:35:55,510 --> 02:35:53,280
artificial intelligence lab at mit

4404
02:35:56,710 --> 02:35:55,520
um that's did my phd there and in the

4405
02:35:58,550 --> 02:35:56,720
brain and cognitive science department

4406
02:36:01,830 --> 02:35:58,560
at mit from 79 to 83.

4407
02:36:03,830 --> 02:36:01,840
at the time ai was mostly about

4408
02:36:05,429 --> 02:36:03,840
propositional right it was good

4409
02:36:08,550 --> 02:36:05,439
old-fashioned ai so we were

4410
02:36:09,590 --> 02:36:08,560
it was explicit algorithms with specific

4411
02:36:12,389 --> 02:36:09,600
things that you could write down as

4412
02:36:14,790 --> 02:36:12,399
propositions and so forth um

4413
02:36:15,830 --> 02:36:14,800
but with neural networks you have this

4414
02:36:17,990 --> 02:36:15,840
kind of thing where

4415
02:36:19,429 --> 02:36:18,000
um the system learns but it's not

4416
02:36:21,110 --> 02:36:19,439
learning propositions

4417
02:36:23,349 --> 02:36:21,120
you're just updating weights and you're

4418
02:36:25,670 --> 02:36:23,359
getting behaviors

4419
02:36:27,030 --> 02:36:25,680
and that turns out to be very very

4420
02:36:28,790 --> 02:36:27,040
effective for modeling

4421
02:36:31,270 --> 02:36:28,800
procedural memories like like motor

4422
02:36:34,870 --> 02:36:31,280
memories and so forth and in fact

4423
02:36:37,270 --> 02:36:34,880
at boston dynamics i believe um

4424
02:36:39,110 --> 02:36:37,280
they've made great progress by by doing

4425
02:36:41,590 --> 02:36:39,120
that by having

4426
02:36:42,230 --> 02:36:41,600
robots that fall down and try things and

4427
02:36:44,150 --> 02:36:42,240
they they

4428
02:36:45,910 --> 02:36:44,160
they walk fall down but their neural

4429
02:36:46,710 --> 02:36:45,920
networks are just updating and updating

4430
02:36:48,469 --> 02:36:46,720
and updating

4431
02:36:50,469 --> 02:36:48,479
and they they don't get any list of

4432
02:36:52,389 --> 02:36:50,479
propositions do this you know do this

4433
02:36:55,670 --> 02:36:52,399
actuator then do that actuator

4434
02:36:58,870 --> 02:36:55,680
no it's just this procedural memory

4435
02:37:00,550 --> 02:36:58,880
um so so we have

4436
02:37:02,070 --> 02:37:00,560
so there's been this big debate between

4437
02:37:02,550 --> 02:37:02,080
propositional procedural that's gone on

4438
02:37:04,309 --> 02:37:02,560
between

4439
02:37:06,710 --> 02:37:04,319
the neural network modelers and the good

4440
02:37:08,150 --> 02:37:06,720
old-fashioned ai kinds of modelers and

4441
02:37:10,550 --> 02:37:08,160
and so forth and you know it's a

4442
02:37:13,590 --> 02:37:10,560
profitable debate

4443
02:37:15,270 --> 02:37:13,600
and and then there's the inactive

4444
02:37:16,790 --> 02:37:15,280
or embody cognition kind of thing that

4445
02:37:18,710 --> 02:37:16,800
comes into it as well

4446
02:37:20,309 --> 02:37:18,720
i'm taking a perspectival thing as well

4447
02:37:21,670 --> 02:37:20,319
right so i'm saying that that in some

4448
02:37:22,710 --> 02:37:21,680
sense conscious experiences and

4449
02:37:26,309 --> 02:37:22,720
perspectives therefore

4450
02:37:27,750 --> 02:37:26,319
are are fundamental but i i see

4451
02:37:30,230 --> 02:37:27,760
within the network of conscious agents

4452
02:37:33,590 --> 02:37:30,240
being able to get both procedural

4453
02:37:35,910 --> 02:37:33,600
and explicit propositional kinds of

4454
02:37:37,349 --> 02:37:35,920
representations coming out but i think

4455
02:37:39,429 --> 02:37:37,359
also as you said

4456
02:37:40,550 --> 02:37:39,439
i should be looking at non-computational

4457
02:37:43,349 --> 02:37:40,560
approaches to this

4458
02:37:43,990 --> 02:37:43,359
and um i've got some mathematician

4459
02:37:45,750 --> 02:37:44,000
friends

4460
02:37:47,030 --> 02:37:45,760
working with me who are expert in

4461
02:37:51,990 --> 02:37:47,040
category theory

4462
02:37:53,830 --> 02:37:52,000
to explode this into a very very general

4463
02:37:55,190 --> 02:37:53,840
mathematical framework and we intend to

4464
02:37:56,950 --> 02:37:55,200
go there

4465
02:37:58,469 --> 02:37:56,960
i know you got to go soon i'm going to

4466
02:37:59,830 --> 02:37:58,479
just get to the

4467
02:38:01,510 --> 02:37:59,840
the best of questions are the ones that

4468
02:38:02,550 --> 02:38:01,520
i like answered which might be more

4469
02:38:04,630 --> 02:38:02,560
technical

4470
02:38:06,230 --> 02:38:04,640
okay at some point you use landauer's

4471
02:38:08,389 --> 02:38:06,240
limit

4472
02:38:09,990 --> 02:38:08,399
i you know what i'm you recall what i'm

4473
02:38:13,270 --> 02:38:10,000
referring to okay

4474
02:38:15,830 --> 02:38:13,280
why do you use that when landorus limit

4475
02:38:17,590 --> 02:38:15,840
presupposes space and time why do you

4476
02:38:18,309 --> 02:38:17,600
use that as a limit for the amount of

4477
02:38:21,270 --> 02:38:18,319
ticks

4478
02:38:21,990 --> 02:38:21,280
or the energy that goes into a tick um

4479
02:38:25,190 --> 02:38:22,000
we've

4480
02:38:27,349 --> 02:38:25,200
used that and this is um largely the uh

4481
02:38:29,110 --> 02:38:27,359
the brilliance of my friend chris fields

4482
02:38:30,790 --> 02:38:29,120
who's who's a

4483
02:38:32,309 --> 02:38:30,800
physicist who's been working on that so

4484
02:38:34,150 --> 02:38:32,319
he likes to look at the

4485
02:38:36,389 --> 02:38:34,160
information theoretic things using

4486
02:38:38,630 --> 02:38:36,399
landauer's principle and to look

4487
02:38:39,750 --> 02:38:38,640
so most of his analyses are in terms of

4488
02:38:40,950 --> 02:38:39,760
quantum theory

4489
02:38:42,950 --> 02:38:40,960
and what what are the limits of

4490
02:38:45,190 --> 02:38:42,960
information transfer in quantum systems

4491
02:38:46,550 --> 02:38:45,200
so that's usually the context in which

4492
02:38:49,670 --> 02:38:46,560
we bring that up

4493
02:38:51,830 --> 02:38:49,680
um ultimately if we

4494
02:38:53,830 --> 02:38:51,840
get a theory of space time trying to

4495
02:38:55,349 --> 02:38:53,840
emerge from our theory of conscious

4496
02:38:57,349 --> 02:38:55,359
agents

4497
02:38:59,429 --> 02:38:57,359
then once again we will face landauer's

4498
02:39:03,190 --> 02:38:59,439
kind of limit when we look at

4499
02:39:06,469 --> 02:39:03,200
how our space-time model

4500
02:39:09,190 --> 02:39:06,479
um is capturing features of the

4501
02:39:10,070 --> 02:39:09,200
information dynamics of conscious agents

4502
02:39:11,670 --> 02:39:10,080
so

4503
02:39:13,830 --> 02:39:11,680
it will come there as a property of the

4504
02:39:17,349 --> 02:39:13,840
interface but not as a fundamental limit

4505
02:39:19,429 --> 02:39:17,359
of of consciousness okay okay and

4506
02:39:20,550 --> 02:39:19,439
does that give a bound for the amount of

4507
02:39:22,550 --> 02:39:20,560
time

4508
02:39:24,070 --> 02:39:22,560
for each click so just so people are

4509
02:39:25,990 --> 02:39:24,080
aware there was that model that i'll

4510
02:39:28,230 --> 02:39:26,000
show on the screen there's the wxg

4511
02:39:29,590 --> 02:39:28,240
i was simplifying it there's a t that's

4512
02:39:32,070 --> 02:39:29,600
in the middle that counts

4513
02:39:33,429 --> 02:39:32,080
the amount of revolutions in the system

4514
02:39:36,870 --> 02:39:33,439
i could be wrong just correct me

4515
02:39:37,510 --> 02:39:36,880
but either way that to me seems akin to

4516
02:39:39,349 --> 02:39:37,520
time

4517
02:39:41,030 --> 02:39:39,359
and then in the paper it seemed like you

4518
02:39:41,510 --> 02:39:41,040
were giving a lower limit to time saying

4519
02:39:44,389 --> 02:39:41,520
that

4520
02:39:45,670 --> 02:39:44,399
experience is something like 100

4521
02:39:47,990 --> 02:39:45,680
femtoseconds

4522
02:39:49,349 --> 02:39:48,000
please correct me if i'm incorrect here

4523
02:39:50,710 --> 02:39:49,359
and i thought that

4524
02:39:52,710 --> 02:39:50,720
well that sounds like a theoretical

4525
02:39:53,429 --> 02:39:52,720
prediction too that if we can get a

4526
02:39:57,910 --> 02:39:53,439
camera or

4527
02:39:59,510 --> 02:39:57,920
conscious experience of a quicker time

4528
02:40:02,309 --> 02:39:59,520
then that would invalidate it or if we

4529
02:40:05,590 --> 02:40:02,319
can't then that would be evidence for it

4530
02:40:06,309 --> 02:40:05,600
right so so i i don't go that direction

4531
02:40:08,469 --> 02:40:06,319
with it

4532
02:40:09,590 --> 02:40:08,479
um and i don't think that chris fields

4533
02:40:16,630 --> 02:40:09,600
goes that direction with it

4534
02:40:24,630 --> 02:40:20,070
there there is no

4535
02:40:29,349 --> 02:40:24,640
fundamental pixelation of space-time

4536
02:40:32,070 --> 02:40:29,359
right so space-time is doomed

4537
02:40:33,269 --> 02:40:32,080
not because we run into pixels at the

4538
02:40:35,590 --> 02:40:33,279
planck scale

4539
02:40:37,269 --> 02:40:35,600
but rather because space time itself

4540
02:40:39,269 --> 02:40:37,279
ceases to be well defined

4541
02:40:41,750 --> 02:40:39,279
it's not a it's not an empirically

4542
02:40:45,429 --> 02:40:41,760
observable construct

4543
02:40:47,670 --> 02:40:45,439
at that level the attempts

4544
02:40:48,870 --> 02:40:47,680
to think about space time as being

4545
02:40:52,630 --> 02:40:48,880
pixelated

4546
02:40:53,990 --> 02:40:52,640
at roughly the blank scale run into a

4547
02:40:57,030 --> 02:40:54,000
very serious problem

4548
02:40:58,070 --> 02:40:57,040
um they're not lorenz invariant the

4549
02:41:00,070 --> 02:40:58,080
pixels

4550
02:41:01,269 --> 02:41:00,080
what's tiny for you may not be tiny for

4551
02:41:03,750 --> 02:41:01,279
someone else so

4552
02:41:05,510 --> 02:41:03,760
it's been no one has a way to make the

4553
02:41:06,550 --> 02:41:05,520
pixelation of space-time lorenz

4554
02:41:09,910 --> 02:41:06,560
invariant

4555
02:41:11,190 --> 02:41:09,920
and and so i wouldn't want to go there

4556
02:41:12,950 --> 02:41:11,200
and i don't think

4557
02:41:15,030 --> 02:41:12,960
chris fields would would want to go

4558
02:41:17,429 --> 02:41:15,040
there nevertheless we may find

4559
02:41:18,950 --> 02:41:17,439
i mean the the landauer limit does play

4560
02:41:20,950 --> 02:41:18,960
a role in information transfers

4561
02:41:22,710 --> 02:41:20,960
in space time so we will want to

4562
02:41:24,309 --> 02:41:22,720
understand where that limit comes from

4563
02:41:27,830 --> 02:41:24,319
from our theory of consciousness

4564
02:41:29,910 --> 02:41:27,840
and our theory of emergent space time

4565
02:41:32,550 --> 02:41:29,920
but i don't see us getting any

4566
02:41:35,190 --> 02:41:32,560
predictions about a pixelation of time

4567
02:41:35,670 --> 02:41:35,200
or pixelation of space because it would

4568
02:41:40,389 --> 02:41:35,680
violate

4569
02:41:42,710 --> 02:41:40,399
lorenz and variance okay

4570
02:41:45,110 --> 02:41:42,720
on the interface theory when i'm not

4571
02:41:47,349 --> 02:41:45,120
looking at let's say the moon

4572
02:41:48,710 --> 02:41:47,359
it's it doesn't necessarily exist but

4573
02:41:50,710 --> 02:41:48,720
you're saying that the

4574
02:41:52,150 --> 02:41:50,720
what doesn't exist is our idea of the

4575
02:41:53,910 --> 02:41:52,160
moon or that the

4576
02:41:55,590 --> 02:41:53,920
that our idea is representing something

4577
02:41:59,030 --> 02:41:55,600
that something still persists it's just

4578
02:42:00,309 --> 02:41:59,040
our idea of the moon doesn't exist

4579
02:42:02,309 --> 02:42:00,319
right so when i say the moon doesn't

4580
02:42:04,309 --> 02:42:02,319
exist um

4581
02:42:05,510 --> 02:42:04,319
i'm i'm saying it in the same way that

4582
02:42:08,790 --> 02:42:05,520
if i look

4583
02:42:10,150 --> 02:42:08,800
like at a an image and see an illusory

4584
02:42:11,830 --> 02:42:10,160
cube

4585
02:42:13,910 --> 02:42:11,840
and i say and then someone and then and

4586
02:42:15,349 --> 02:42:13,920
sometimes the cube i see one corner

4587
02:42:17,190 --> 02:42:15,359
one face in front and sometimes it flips

4588
02:42:20,550 --> 02:42:17,200
and i see another face in front

4589
02:42:21,910 --> 02:42:20,560
um and then when i look away i say that

4590
02:42:23,510 --> 02:42:21,920
there is no such thing as the cube

4591
02:42:24,830 --> 02:42:23,520
because the cube only exists when i look

4592
02:42:26,070 --> 02:42:24,840
at it and then i see the cube and it's

4593
02:42:27,750 --> 02:42:26,080
flipping

4594
02:42:29,590 --> 02:42:27,760
the same thing with the moon the moon is

4595
02:42:32,389 --> 02:42:29,600
like that cube

4596
02:42:34,309 --> 02:42:32,399
now there is some reality that i'm

4597
02:42:35,910 --> 02:42:34,319
interacting with

4598
02:42:38,469 --> 02:42:35,920
and it continues to exist whether or not

4599
02:42:41,110 --> 02:42:38,479
i look but that that reality

4600
02:42:43,269 --> 02:42:41,120
is not inside space and time at all much

4601
02:42:46,389 --> 02:42:43,279
less is at the moon

4602
02:42:47,750 --> 02:42:46,399
space and time themselves are not a

4603
02:42:49,910 --> 02:42:47,760
fundamental reality

4604
02:42:52,150 --> 02:42:49,920
they are data structures that we create

4605
02:42:54,230 --> 02:42:52,160
so anything that's in space time

4606
02:42:56,469 --> 02:42:54,240
is in some sense no more real than the

4607
02:42:58,070 --> 02:42:56,479
illusory cube that i look

4608
02:42:59,750 --> 02:42:58,080
and then destroy when i look away

4609
02:43:01,510 --> 02:42:59,760
spacetime itself is created and

4610
02:43:03,830 --> 02:43:01,520
destroyed by us

4611
02:43:05,510 --> 02:43:03,840
also only exists in the same way that

4612
02:43:06,790 --> 02:43:05,520
that illusory cube exists

4613
02:43:08,710 --> 02:43:06,800
which isn't to say that there isn't

4614
02:43:10,389 --> 02:43:08,720
something that exists but it's not even

4615
02:43:12,469 --> 02:43:10,399
in space and time whenever it exists

4616
02:43:16,550 --> 02:43:12,479
it's outside of space and time

4617
02:43:18,870 --> 02:43:16,560
um it's outside of my headset

4618
02:43:20,070 --> 02:43:18,880
spacetime see i see so let's imagine

4619
02:43:21,429 --> 02:43:20,080
there's tickle me elmo

4620
02:43:23,110 --> 02:43:21,439
and there's a cat and i see that tickle

4621
02:43:24,710 --> 02:43:23,120
me elmo but you're like okay you don't

4622
02:43:26,790 --> 02:43:24,720
you look it's gone it's destroyed it's

4623
02:43:27,910 --> 02:43:26,800
not rendered anymore but a camera that i

4624
02:43:29,750 --> 02:43:27,920
just pressed record on

4625
02:43:31,269 --> 02:43:29,760
can record the tickle memo then i can go

4626
02:43:33,670 --> 02:43:31,279
and press play

4627
02:43:35,269 --> 02:43:33,680
how do you account for that well notice

4628
02:43:36,710 --> 02:43:35,279
you only see the elmo on the camera when

4629
02:43:37,429 --> 02:43:36,720
you look you only see the camera when

4630
02:43:40,230 --> 02:43:37,439
you look

4631
02:43:41,830 --> 02:43:40,240
so the camera itself is again um just

4632
02:43:43,510 --> 02:43:41,840
something that exists when you

4633
02:43:45,590 --> 02:43:43,520
when you perceive it it's pointing to

4634
02:43:46,150 --> 02:43:45,600
another reality there is a reality that

4635
02:43:48,150 --> 02:43:46,160
exists

4636
02:43:49,990 --> 02:43:48,160
independent of you but the reality is

4637
02:43:52,230 --> 02:43:50,000
not the camera and it's not the digital

4638
02:43:54,070 --> 02:43:52,240
recording on the camera those are just

4639
02:43:56,950 --> 02:43:54,080
again your own icons

4640
02:43:58,309 --> 02:43:56,960
so the camera itself is just a simple

4641
02:43:59,750 --> 02:43:58,319
and how does the

4642
02:44:01,750 --> 02:43:59,760
how does your theory i know you've

4643
02:44:02,230 --> 02:44:01,760
covered this before but um just for the

4644
02:44:03,429 --> 02:44:02,240
people

4645
02:44:05,750 --> 02:44:03,439
who are listening how does your theory

4646
02:44:06,309 --> 02:44:05,760
account for inter-subject subjective

4647
02:44:10,790 --> 02:44:06,319
agreement

4648
02:44:12,630 --> 02:44:10,800
is one of our current projects

4649
02:44:13,910 --> 02:44:12,640
right so one of the one of the papers

4650
02:44:21,590 --> 02:44:13,920
we're working on right now

4651
02:44:24,870 --> 02:44:24,150
is critical to science right the way

4652
02:44:27,510 --> 02:44:24,880
scientists

4653
02:44:28,870 --> 02:44:27,520
typically talk about it about what

4654
02:44:30,550 --> 02:44:28,880
science is doing is

4655
02:44:32,870 --> 02:44:30,560
is that what makes science special in

4656
02:44:34,469 --> 02:44:32,880
some sense is that one scientist can

4657
02:44:37,670 --> 02:44:34,479
look at a physical system like

4658
02:44:41,110 --> 02:44:40,389
animal or this planet and another

4659
02:44:42,469 --> 02:44:41,120
scientist

4660
02:44:43,830 --> 02:44:42,479
can make their own independent

4661
02:44:45,590 --> 02:44:43,840
measurements of that animal that

4662
02:44:47,190 --> 02:44:45,600
specific animal or that planet

4663
02:44:48,710 --> 02:44:47,200
and then we can go and compare notes in

4664
02:44:52,230 --> 02:44:48,720
other words we have this notion of

4665
02:44:53,750 --> 02:44:52,240
public physical objects objects that are

4666
02:44:56,230 --> 02:44:53,760
really there

4667
02:44:56,870 --> 02:44:56,240
whether or not we exist like dinosaur

4668
02:44:58,389 --> 02:44:56,880
bones right

4669
02:45:00,070 --> 02:44:58,399
the dinosaur bones have been there for

4670
02:45:01,590 --> 02:45:00,080
200 million years

4671
02:45:03,110 --> 02:45:01,600
they were there if no one had ever been

4672
02:45:04,550 --> 02:45:03,120
around they would still be there i can

4673
02:45:05,830 --> 02:45:04,560
look at the dinosaur bones you can look

4674
02:45:07,030 --> 02:45:05,840
at the dinosaur bones they're public

4675
02:45:07,670 --> 02:45:07,040
physical objects we can make our

4676
02:45:10,950 --> 02:45:07,680
measurements

4677
02:45:13,110 --> 02:45:10,960
get the dna and so forth that's gone

4678
02:45:13,990 --> 02:45:13,120
in my point of view that whole point of

4679
02:45:16,790 --> 02:45:14,000
view is gone because

4680
02:45:18,309 --> 02:45:16,800
space time itself is doomed space time

4681
02:45:19,269 --> 02:45:18,319
isn't fundamental there are no public

4682
02:45:21,990 --> 02:45:19,279
physical objects

4683
02:45:22,950 --> 02:45:22,000
so how do we rethink what we mean by

4684
02:45:26,790 --> 02:45:22,960
objectivity

4685
02:45:29,910 --> 02:45:26,800
with again

4686
02:45:31,510 --> 02:45:29,920
having independent scientists do their

4687
02:45:32,550 --> 02:45:31,520
own experiments and come to some

4688
02:45:34,950 --> 02:45:32,560
agreement

4689
02:45:35,910 --> 02:45:34,960
so the framework that i'm working on

4690
02:45:38,950 --> 02:45:35,920
right now

4691
02:45:41,190 --> 02:45:38,960
poses that as a really serious question

4692
02:45:42,309 --> 02:45:41,200
and so we're writing a paper on that

4693
02:45:43,670 --> 02:45:42,319
right now we're going to be running

4694
02:45:45,349 --> 02:45:43,680
simulations but but

4695
02:45:48,950 --> 02:45:45,359
here's the kind of idea that i'm playing

4696
02:45:54,550 --> 02:45:52,230
i think that we have to take the

4697
02:45:57,429 --> 02:45:54,560
possibility of synesthesia

4698
02:45:59,990 --> 02:45:57,439
very seriously we actually know

4699
02:46:03,190 --> 02:46:00,000
synesthesia occurs

4700
02:46:04,790 --> 02:46:03,200
it could be easily in the cards that

4701
02:46:07,910 --> 02:46:04,800
your

4702
02:46:08,710 --> 02:46:07,920
visual experiences that you described

4703
02:46:11,750 --> 02:46:08,720
with the words

4704
02:46:12,710 --> 02:46:11,760
red and round and square and so forth

4705
02:46:15,429 --> 02:46:12,720
and i described

4706
02:46:15,990 --> 02:46:15,439
if i could get inside your head for all

4707
02:46:18,550 --> 02:46:16,000
i know

4708
02:46:19,190 --> 02:46:18,560
i would go whoa whoa that's not what i

4709
02:46:22,630 --> 02:46:19,200
would call

4710
02:46:26,070 --> 02:46:22,640
the smell of garlic and the taste of

4711
02:46:29,190 --> 02:46:26,080
butter um or a headache those are

4712
02:46:32,469 --> 02:46:29,200
the just like michael watson

4713
02:46:34,550 --> 02:46:32,479
he he tastes mint but he feels a tall

4714
02:46:36,790 --> 02:46:34,560
cold smooth column of glass i don't feel

4715
02:46:38,309 --> 02:46:36,800
that if all michael watson ever

4716
02:46:39,190 --> 02:46:38,319
experienced were the feelings in his

4717
02:46:42,309 --> 02:46:39,200
hand

4718
02:46:43,910 --> 02:46:42,319
he would have a perfectly good taste

4719
02:46:46,950 --> 02:46:43,920
sensation he could cook

4720
02:46:49,429 --> 02:46:46,960
he could figure out what what foods are

4721
02:46:50,790 --> 02:46:49,439
so in other words we could you and i as

4722
02:46:54,870 --> 02:46:50,800
scientists

4723
02:46:58,389 --> 02:46:56,230
believe that we're talking the same

4724
02:47:00,469 --> 02:46:58,399
language and yet your

4725
02:47:01,990 --> 02:47:00,479
experiences could be synesthetically

4726
02:47:04,710 --> 02:47:02,000
utterly different from mine

4727
02:47:05,670 --> 02:47:04,720
and we would never know and i think that

4728
02:47:09,590 --> 02:47:05,680
that's

4729
02:47:13,429 --> 02:47:09,600
going to turn out to be a fundamental

4730
02:47:16,469 --> 02:47:13,439
and unbreachable limit

4731
02:47:18,309 --> 02:47:16,479
to what we can know and to

4732
02:47:19,670 --> 02:47:18,319
the degree of objectivity that we can

4733
02:47:22,309 --> 02:47:19,680
have in science

4734
02:47:23,429 --> 02:47:22,319
we the technical thing would be that we

4735
02:47:26,630 --> 02:47:23,439
can only agree

4736
02:47:28,790 --> 02:47:26,640
up to effectively a homomorphism

4737
02:47:30,630 --> 02:47:28,800
a homomorphism of your set of perceptual

4738
02:47:33,910 --> 02:47:30,640
representations and experiences

4739
02:47:35,349 --> 02:47:33,920
and mine the homomorphism could be as

4740
02:47:37,590 --> 02:47:35,359
radical as the difference between

4741
02:47:39,030 --> 02:47:37,600
the taste of mint and the tall cold

4742
02:47:42,469 --> 02:47:39,040
smooth column of glass it could be

4743
02:47:43,670 --> 02:47:42,479
that different and we would never know

4744
02:47:45,030 --> 02:47:43,680
the only reason we know in michael

4745
02:47:46,389 --> 02:47:45,040
watson's case is because he had both and

4746
02:47:48,150 --> 02:47:46,399
he could tell us about both

4747
02:47:50,230 --> 02:47:48,160
we could say oh well i understand the

4748
02:47:50,870 --> 02:47:50,240
one but gee i never thought about the

4749
02:47:54,389 --> 02:47:50,880
other

4750
02:47:57,030 --> 02:47:54,399
that's that's incredible um so

4751
02:48:01,269 --> 02:47:57,040
so we're gonna have to understand what

4752
02:48:05,510 --> 02:48:04,150
confirmation and what's the greatest

4753
02:48:09,030 --> 02:48:05,520
level of agreement

4754
02:48:10,550 --> 02:48:09,040
that scientists can have given this

4755
02:48:13,830 --> 02:48:10,560
possibility of

4756
02:48:16,870 --> 02:48:13,840
synesthetic complete divergence

4757
02:48:19,990 --> 02:48:16,880
between us

4758
02:48:21,030 --> 02:48:20,000
and i would love to i was talking with

4759
02:48:22,630 --> 02:48:21,040
my colleagues on this

4760
02:48:24,309 --> 02:48:22,640
in the paper that we're writing we may

4761
02:48:25,750 --> 02:48:24,319
actually do this

4762
02:48:28,830 --> 02:48:25,760
not just as a thought experiment paper

4763
02:48:31,510 --> 02:48:28,840
we may actually do this i would love to

4764
02:48:33,030 --> 02:48:31,520
create this really interesting virtual

4765
02:48:36,150 --> 02:48:33,040
reality game

4766
02:48:37,110 --> 02:48:36,160
two-player game or multiplayer but for

4767
02:48:39,750 --> 02:48:37,120
one player

4768
02:48:42,790 --> 02:48:39,760
it's it it they're immersed in what

4769
02:48:44,070 --> 02:48:42,800
seems like say grand theft auto

4770
02:48:46,230 --> 02:48:44,080
player is immersed in a completely

4771
02:48:49,510 --> 02:48:46,240
different game like super mario brothers

4772
02:48:50,870 --> 02:48:49,520
but i've arranged it so they both think

4773
02:48:52,790 --> 02:48:50,880
that they're playing the same game

4774
02:48:53,910 --> 02:48:52,800
and they are actually playing and they

4775
02:48:55,670 --> 02:48:53,920
win and lose

4776
02:48:57,269 --> 02:48:55,680
and but they have no idea that the other

4777
02:48:58,630 --> 02:48:57,279
person is in a completely different

4778
02:49:00,150 --> 02:48:58,640
virtual world

4779
02:49:01,830 --> 02:49:00,160
and they but they're also they're

4780
02:49:02,469 --> 02:49:01,840
they're using language they seem to

4781
02:49:04,150 --> 02:49:02,479
agree

4782
02:49:05,510 --> 02:49:04,160
right you take them out of their heads

4783
02:49:07,190 --> 02:49:05,520
and have them swap and

4784
02:49:08,950 --> 02:49:07,200
blow their minds when they find out what

4785
02:49:09,990 --> 02:49:08,960
the other person was doing i think we

4786
02:49:12,469 --> 02:49:10,000
can do that

4787
02:49:14,230 --> 02:49:12,479
and so we have to be if that's true if

4788
02:49:16,070 --> 02:49:14,240
that's possible

4789
02:49:17,990 --> 02:49:16,080
in category theory that would be the

4790
02:49:20,309 --> 02:49:18,000
idea that you might have

4791
02:49:21,429 --> 02:49:20,319
this one category for your

4792
02:49:22,790 --> 02:49:21,439
representation

4793
02:49:25,110 --> 02:49:22,800
the other scientists might have another

4794
02:49:27,990 --> 02:49:25,120
category but if there's some functor

4795
02:49:29,830 --> 02:49:28,000
if there's some functor that maps the

4796
02:49:32,389 --> 02:49:29,840
objects and relations

4797
02:49:35,110 --> 02:49:32,399
that you have in your interface to the

4798
02:49:37,990 --> 02:49:35,120
objects and relations that the other

4799
02:49:39,030 --> 02:49:38,000
scientist has in their interface if you

4800
02:49:40,790 --> 02:49:39,040
have the right functor

4801
02:49:42,309 --> 02:49:40,800
then the scientists will have the

4802
02:49:43,670 --> 02:49:42,319
appearance of agreement and they will

4803
02:49:46,710 --> 02:49:43,680
never know that they're

4804
02:49:51,510 --> 02:49:46,720
separated by this functor

4805
02:49:54,630 --> 02:49:51,520
and so i think that there's going to be

4806
02:49:55,990 --> 02:49:54,640
category theoretic analyses ahead

4807
02:49:57,670 --> 02:49:56,000
on this that are going to be really

4808
02:49:59,110 --> 02:49:57,680
quite stunning but i think that's going

4809
02:49:59,830 --> 02:49:59,120
to be the future of the philosophy of

4810
02:50:02,389 --> 02:49:59,840
science

4811
02:50:05,910 --> 02:50:02,399
is this category theoretic fundamental

4812
02:50:10,790 --> 02:50:09,110
agreement that scientists can have there

4813
02:50:15,349 --> 02:50:10,800
are no public physical objects

4814
02:50:18,870 --> 02:50:17,830
laboratory independent verification my

4815
02:50:21,990 --> 02:50:18,880
laboratory gets it

4816
02:50:24,150 --> 02:50:22,000
really doing in that case it's going to

4817
02:50:26,230 --> 02:50:24,160
be up to some functor

4818
02:50:27,190 --> 02:50:26,240
right it sounds to me i only have three

4819
02:50:28,870 --> 02:50:27,200
three more questions

4820
02:50:30,550 --> 02:50:28,880
and they might be long but i have three

4821
02:50:30,950 --> 02:50:30,560
questions it sounds to me like you're

4822
02:50:33,429 --> 02:50:30,960
saying

4823
02:50:34,630 --> 02:50:33,439
that there are some homomorphic

4824
02:50:37,110 --> 02:50:34,640
functions between us

4825
02:50:39,269 --> 02:50:37,120
and that's responsible for why we feel

4826
02:50:42,469 --> 02:50:39,279
like we share a similar world

4827
02:50:43,110 --> 02:50:42,479
however can we not use the same argument

4828
02:50:45,990 --> 02:50:43,120
that you use

4829
02:50:47,429 --> 02:50:46,000
to show that the probability that we see

4830
02:50:48,710 --> 02:50:47,439
the truth is zero that is that the

4831
02:50:51,030 --> 02:50:48,720
immiscible functions

4832
02:50:52,550 --> 02:50:51,040
grow much larger than the homomorphic

4833
02:50:54,230 --> 02:50:52,560
functions to the structure

4834
02:50:55,590 --> 02:50:54,240
can we not use that to say that the

4835
02:50:58,870 --> 02:50:55,600
probability that we share

4836
02:51:00,950 --> 02:50:58,880
any interface is also zero including

4837
02:51:04,790 --> 02:51:00,960
homomorphic

4838
02:51:06,710 --> 02:51:04,800
right aspects um not not at least

4839
02:51:08,230 --> 02:51:06,720
within the theory of conscious agents in

4840
02:51:09,990 --> 02:51:08,240
the dynamics that i'm

4841
02:51:12,790 --> 02:51:10,000
talking about now because what we can do

4842
02:51:15,030 --> 02:51:12,800
is we can ask are there certain

4843
02:51:16,070 --> 02:51:15,040
strategies of interaction that conscious

4844
02:51:18,309 --> 02:51:16,080
agents can have

4845
02:51:19,590 --> 02:51:18,319
where they would converge in the limit

4846
02:51:21,670 --> 02:51:19,600
to homomorphic things

4847
02:51:23,030 --> 02:51:21,680
right so that's different evolutionary

4848
02:51:24,630 --> 02:51:23,040
game theory where the rules have been

4849
02:51:26,150 --> 02:51:24,640
spelled out i mean i i

4850
02:51:27,349 --> 02:51:26,160
in that i don't get to play with it

4851
02:51:29,030 --> 02:51:27,359
because they're constraints so it's not

4852
02:51:31,510 --> 02:51:29,040
just uniform probability

4853
02:51:33,190 --> 02:51:31,520
that that's right so i see i see so in

4854
02:51:36,790 --> 02:51:33,200
the case of conscious agents

4855
02:51:38,630 --> 02:51:36,800
the question is can we find dynamics

4856
02:51:42,150 --> 02:51:38,640
in which the agents can converge up to

4857
02:51:43,590 --> 02:51:42,160
homomorphisms and i think we can

4858
02:51:45,510 --> 02:51:43,600
okay here's one that's super

4859
02:51:46,070 --> 02:51:45,520
philosophical if what you're saying is

4860
02:51:48,790 --> 02:51:46,080
that

4861
02:51:50,389 --> 02:51:48,800
we are not tuned for truth because truth

4862
02:51:51,349 --> 02:51:50,399
is deleterious at least compared to

4863
02:51:54,150 --> 02:51:51,359
fitness which is

4864
02:51:55,510 --> 02:51:54,160
so lubrious however let's imagine your

4865
02:51:57,670 --> 02:51:55,520
theory is correct

4866
02:51:59,190 --> 02:51:57,680
then we're starting to see the truth

4867
02:52:01,030 --> 02:51:59,200
does that not mean that

4868
02:52:03,590 --> 02:52:01,040
it's deleterious we shouldn't do that

4869
02:52:05,349 --> 02:52:03,600
we're not designed for that

4870
02:52:06,870 --> 02:52:05,359
um absolutely not and so here's where

4871
02:52:08,950 --> 02:52:06,880
it's very very careful to

4872
02:52:10,550 --> 02:52:08,960
to again see the game that i'm playing

4873
02:52:14,230 --> 02:52:10,560
the game that i'm playing is

4874
02:52:15,830 --> 02:52:14,240
i take evolution at us on its own terms

4875
02:52:17,750 --> 02:52:15,840
and i see what its implications are i

4876
02:52:19,110 --> 02:52:17,760
don't i don't say i believe evolution

4877
02:52:21,110 --> 02:52:19,120
i'm just playing the game

4878
02:52:22,630 --> 02:52:21,120
this is what the math of evolution says

4879
02:52:23,110 --> 02:52:22,640
it says very clearly we don't see the

4880
02:52:25,110 --> 02:52:23,120
truth

4881
02:52:26,230 --> 02:52:25,120
okay that's what evolution says

4882
02:52:28,469 --> 02:52:26,240
probability of zero that we see the

4883
02:52:30,550 --> 02:52:28,479
truth that's not what hoffman says

4884
02:52:32,150 --> 02:52:30,560
hoffman doesn't care about that except

4885
02:52:32,630 --> 02:52:32,160
to understand that that's what evolution

4886
02:52:36,150 --> 02:52:32,640
says

4887
02:52:38,870 --> 02:52:36,160
believe it so i'm free

4888
02:52:40,150 --> 02:52:38,880
on the one hand to prove that evolution

4889
02:52:41,750 --> 02:52:40,160
entails we don't see the truth

4890
02:52:43,349 --> 02:52:41,760
i'm free to prove that and then to step

4891
02:52:44,710 --> 02:52:43,359
back and say i still believe we see the

4892
02:52:45,670 --> 02:52:44,720
truth here's my theory in which we see

4893
02:52:48,630 --> 02:52:45,680
the truth

4894
02:52:49,269 --> 02:52:48,640
but the constraint will then be okay

4895
02:52:50,710 --> 02:52:49,279
then

4896
02:52:53,030 --> 02:52:50,720
you if you have this theory in which we

4897
02:52:54,150 --> 02:52:53,040
see the truth you have to explain how it

4898
02:52:55,670 --> 02:52:54,160
is

4899
02:52:57,269 --> 02:52:55,680
in that framework where you see the

4900
02:53:00,070 --> 02:52:57,279
truth that you

4901
02:53:01,269 --> 02:53:00,080
end up arriving at the theory of

4902
02:53:02,710 --> 02:53:01,279
evolution of natural selection which

4903
02:53:04,790 --> 02:53:02,720
says otherwise

4904
02:53:06,150 --> 02:53:04,800
if you can't do that then you're wrong

4905
02:53:07,830 --> 02:53:06,160
so so so this is

4906
02:53:09,110 --> 02:53:07,840
a really and by the way it's a great

4907
02:53:09,990 --> 02:53:09,120
question because i get this question in

4908
02:53:14,150 --> 02:53:10,000
emails quite quite

4909
02:53:15,590 --> 02:53:14,160
a bit um so so the the key thing is this

4910
02:53:18,469 --> 02:53:15,600
hofmann doesn't say we don't see the

4911
02:53:20,630 --> 02:53:18,479
truth evolution by natural selection

4912
02:53:22,469 --> 02:53:20,640
says we don't see the truth

4913
02:53:24,550 --> 02:53:22,479
i don't say that evolution of natural

4914
02:53:27,349 --> 02:53:24,560
selection says that i just

4915
02:53:28,230 --> 02:53:27,359
i'm just the messenger right that's what

4916
02:53:30,630 --> 02:53:28,240
evolution is

4917
02:53:31,830 --> 02:53:30,640
don't shoot me i'm just the messenger um

4918
02:53:33,830 --> 02:53:31,840
i'm just pointing out what

4919
02:53:35,030 --> 02:53:33,840
one of our best theories entails now i'm

4920
02:53:37,030 --> 02:53:35,040
stepping back and i'm going

4921
02:53:38,950 --> 02:53:37,040
i i would like to see the truth of

4922
02:53:41,030 --> 02:53:38,960
course maybe i can't

4923
02:53:42,550 --> 02:53:41,040
i'm not saying i know that we can see

4924
02:53:44,230 --> 02:53:42,560
the truth i'm just saying

4925
02:53:45,830 --> 02:53:44,240
as a scientist i would like to come up

4926
02:53:47,190 --> 02:53:45,840
with a theory

4927
02:53:48,389 --> 02:53:47,200
which entails that we see the truth and

4928
02:53:48,870 --> 02:53:48,399
that's why i'm looking at consciousness

4929
02:53:51,110 --> 02:53:48,880
because

4930
02:53:52,309 --> 02:53:51,120
i am conscious so if i'm conscious and

4931
02:53:54,469 --> 02:53:52,319
the reality is consciousness

4932
02:53:55,830 --> 02:53:54,479
there is some connection between me and

4933
02:53:57,190 --> 02:53:55,840
the reality i might actually be able to

4934
02:54:00,469 --> 02:53:57,200
understand that reality because

4935
02:54:01,510 --> 02:54:00,479
i'm conscious but then the burden is on

4936
02:54:03,590 --> 02:54:01,520
me

4937
02:54:05,990 --> 02:54:03,600
to then explain how my theory where i

4938
02:54:10,070 --> 02:54:06,000
see the truth of these conscious agents

4939
02:54:12,230 --> 02:54:10,080
leads to an interface of space time

4940
02:54:13,910 --> 02:54:12,240
and in that interface this theory of

4941
02:54:17,750 --> 02:54:13,920
evolution natural selection

4942
02:54:20,389 --> 02:54:17,760
which says you don't see the truth well

4943
02:54:21,910 --> 02:54:20,399
that won't be so strikingly strange

4944
02:54:23,830 --> 02:54:21,920
because

4945
02:54:26,309 --> 02:54:23,840
evolution is telling you that what you

4946
02:54:27,750 --> 02:54:26,319
see in the interface isn't the truth

4947
02:54:29,590 --> 02:54:27,760
well i'm also saying that from this

4948
02:54:30,150 --> 02:54:29,600
bigger picture i'm saying that there's

4949
02:54:33,269 --> 02:54:30,160
this

4950
02:54:33,750 --> 02:54:33,279
the space time interface that's the

4951
02:54:35,030 --> 02:54:33,760
truth

4952
02:54:36,550 --> 02:54:35,040
and you can't see it within the

4953
02:54:37,910 --> 02:54:36,560
interface well it's not going to be a

4954
02:54:38,950 --> 02:54:37,920
surprise that evolution by natural

4955
02:54:40,950 --> 02:54:38,960
selection says that

4956
02:54:42,150 --> 02:54:40,960
inside the interface so it'll all work

4957
02:54:45,190 --> 02:54:42,160
out so

4958
02:54:46,150 --> 02:54:45,200
so so that's i hope that gives that's a

4959
02:54:48,710 --> 02:54:46,160
great question okay

4960
02:54:49,910 --> 02:54:48,720
let me quick let me rephrase it so that

4961
02:54:51,269 --> 02:54:49,920
i get it across

4962
02:54:53,110 --> 02:54:51,279
because i don't think i portrayed it

4963
02:54:54,870 --> 02:54:53,120
correctly

4964
02:54:56,550 --> 02:54:54,880
you're saying that and i'm sorry

4965
02:54:57,590 --> 02:54:56,560
evolutionary theory is saying that we're

4966
02:54:59,510 --> 02:54:57,600
not designed for

4967
02:55:01,030 --> 02:54:59,520
the truth we're designed for fitness

4968
02:55:03,110 --> 02:55:01,040
right and those are two completely

4969
02:55:05,030 --> 02:55:03,120
separate phenomena okay

4970
02:55:06,870 --> 02:55:05,040
the cl if we were designed for truth if

4971
02:55:09,750 --> 02:55:06,880
we were able to see the truth

4972
02:55:10,469 --> 02:55:09,760
that would be horrible for us but at the

4973
02:55:12,950 --> 02:55:10,479
same time

4974
02:55:13,830 --> 02:55:12,960
you're like i want to look at the truth

4975
02:55:15,990 --> 02:55:13,840
so i'm gonna

4976
02:55:17,190 --> 02:55:16,000
let's say you're actually uncovering the

4977
02:55:20,309 --> 02:55:17,200
truth is that not

4978
02:55:22,070 --> 02:55:20,319
harmful given the presupposition that

4979
02:55:23,349 --> 02:55:22,080
we should be pursuing fitness and not

4980
02:55:25,670 --> 02:55:23,359
truth

4981
02:55:27,349 --> 02:55:25,680
no it's not because by stepping outside

4982
02:55:29,110 --> 02:55:27,359
of the entire framework of evolution i'm

4983
02:55:30,550 --> 02:55:29,120
stepping outside of its assumptions

4984
02:55:31,670 --> 02:55:30,560
i'm saying there's a deeper framework in

4985
02:55:32,630 --> 02:55:31,680
which the assumptions of evolution

4986
02:55:35,990 --> 02:55:32,640
aren't true

4987
02:55:37,830 --> 02:55:36,000
i see i see only true within the headset

4988
02:55:40,070 --> 02:55:37,840
the headset is just a headset there's

4989
02:55:42,389 --> 02:55:40,080
this deeper reality outside the headset

4990
02:55:43,429 --> 02:55:42,399
it's it's like if i see the twitterverse

4991
02:55:44,790 --> 02:55:43,439
only through my headset

4992
02:55:46,150 --> 02:55:44,800
and there's certain rules about how i

4993
02:55:47,269 --> 02:55:46,160
perceive in the headset and i assume

4994
02:55:47,830 --> 02:55:47,279
that those rules of what i see in the

4995
02:55:49,349 --> 02:55:47,840
headset

4996
02:55:50,950 --> 02:55:49,359
must apply to all the twitter users well

4997
02:55:52,230 --> 02:55:50,960
that's stupid the twitter users are

4998
02:55:55,030 --> 02:55:52,240
doing their own thing

4999
02:55:56,070 --> 02:55:55,040
my headset is is just smashing all this

5000
02:55:57,990 --> 02:55:56,080
complexity

5001
02:56:00,150 --> 02:55:58,000
into this trivial little headset and

5002
02:56:01,510 --> 02:56:00,160
that's why evolution has to tell us

5003
02:56:02,710 --> 02:56:01,520
that it's not seeing the truth because

5004
02:56:03,910 --> 02:56:02,720
what's happened from this bigger

5005
02:56:06,950 --> 02:56:03,920
framework is

5006
02:56:09,910 --> 02:56:06,960
space time and and objects in spacetime

5007
02:56:12,630 --> 02:56:09,920
is this incredible smashing down

5008
02:56:14,309 --> 02:56:12,640
information losing map from the reality

5009
02:56:17,510 --> 02:56:14,319
this vast social network into

5010
02:56:19,830 --> 02:56:17,520
this trivial little space-time

5011
02:56:21,590 --> 02:56:19,840
interface so it's no surprise that

5012
02:56:22,790 --> 02:56:21,600
evolution by natural selection is saying

5013
02:56:24,070 --> 02:56:22,800
you know what

5014
02:56:25,190 --> 02:56:24,080
you're not going to see the truth you're

5015
02:56:25,990 --> 02:56:25,200
just going to see little interface

5016
02:56:27,910 --> 02:56:26,000
symbols

5017
02:56:29,990 --> 02:56:27,920
that's what it's telling us and i say i

5018
02:56:31,190 --> 02:56:30,000
agree we're only seeing interface

5019
02:56:33,269 --> 02:56:31,200
symbols but

5020
02:56:35,110 --> 02:56:33,279
that's only in space time we're not

5021
02:56:35,910 --> 02:56:35,120
stuck in space time you and i are not in

5022
02:56:40,309 --> 02:56:35,920
space time

5023
02:56:41,349 --> 02:56:40,319
game apply within the game but you can

5024
02:56:43,670 --> 02:56:41,359
step out of the game

5025
02:56:44,950 --> 02:56:43,680
that's right okay okay the authors of

5026
02:56:48,150 --> 02:56:44,960
the game

5027
02:56:51,269 --> 02:56:48,160
okay cool cool i'm gonna

5028
02:56:51,830 --> 02:56:51,279
i'm gonna instead of asking you i'm

5029
02:56:53,269 --> 02:56:51,840
gonna

5030
02:56:54,230 --> 02:56:53,279
list the last questions and then you

5031
02:56:55,349 --> 02:56:54,240
just choose one because i know you've

5032
02:56:57,429 --> 02:56:55,359
got to go

5033
02:56:58,950 --> 02:56:57,439
yeah okay so i was going to say where

5034
02:57:00,790 --> 02:56:58,960
does p where do people like deepak

5035
02:57:02,790 --> 02:57:00,800
chopra take your message too far

5036
02:57:05,110 --> 02:57:02,800
so that's an option you can answer that

5037
02:57:07,510 --> 02:57:05,120
another one is when jesus says i am the

5038
02:57:09,110 --> 02:57:07,520
way the truth and the light

5039
02:57:11,269 --> 02:57:09,120
what truth do you think he was referring

5040
02:57:15,750 --> 02:57:11,279
to and then the other question

5041
02:57:19,830 --> 02:57:18,230
well those are all all tough um with

5042
02:57:22,070 --> 02:57:19,840
with deepak

5043
02:57:23,670 --> 02:57:22,080
deepak and i have been good friends for

5044
02:57:27,110 --> 02:57:23,680
for several years now

5045
02:57:30,710 --> 02:57:27,120
um it's he's

5046
02:57:35,110 --> 02:57:30,720
a spiritual teacher i'm not

5047
02:57:39,190 --> 02:57:35,120
uh we respect each

5048
02:57:42,070 --> 02:57:39,200
i other respect him as as a seeker

5049
02:57:43,510 --> 02:57:42,080
and he's he's he's learning to be

5050
02:57:45,190 --> 02:57:43,520
careful about how he

5051
02:57:47,030 --> 02:57:45,200
throws around words like quantum

5052
02:57:49,510 --> 02:57:47,040
mechanics and so forth i mean he's been

5053
02:57:50,950 --> 02:57:49,520
he's been i'm aware he's taken hits in

5054
02:57:55,510 --> 02:57:50,960
the past and i think that

5055
02:57:58,389 --> 02:57:55,520
that but i have really he and i

5056
02:57:59,910 --> 02:57:58,399
and this is really important science and

5057
02:58:02,870 --> 02:57:59,920
spirituality

5058
02:58:04,469 --> 02:58:02,880
do need to have a dialogue and whenever

5059
02:58:07,190 --> 02:58:04,479
there's a dialogue

5060
02:58:08,469 --> 02:58:07,200
even within members of two different

5061
02:58:09,910 --> 02:58:08,479
scientific disciplines

5062
02:58:11,670 --> 02:58:09,920
you have to have a lot of patience with

5063
02:58:13,349 --> 02:58:11,680
the other person so you know

5064
02:58:15,190 --> 02:58:13,359
someone who is not a cognitive scientist

5065
02:58:16,550 --> 02:58:15,200
coming to talk to me say he's a chemist

5066
02:58:18,309 --> 02:58:16,560
well when i start talking chemistry with

5067
02:58:20,710 --> 02:58:18,319
him i'm going to feel like and

5068
02:58:22,550 --> 02:58:20,720
be really stupid compared to him when he

5069
02:58:24,790 --> 02:58:22,560
talks cognitive science to me it's

5070
02:58:25,830 --> 02:58:24,800
he's going to be really pedestrian to me

5071
02:58:27,030 --> 02:58:25,840
it's going to be the same thing in

5072
02:58:30,150 --> 02:58:27,040
science and spirituality

5073
02:58:31,110 --> 02:58:30,160
so if i want productive dialogue of

5074
02:58:32,630 --> 02:58:31,120
course

5075
02:58:35,190 --> 02:58:32,640
i'm going to be saying things that to

5076
02:58:37,510 --> 02:58:35,200
someone who's spiritually

5077
02:58:39,030 --> 02:58:37,520
trained is going to sound you know

5078
02:58:41,750 --> 02:58:39,040
scientific

5079
02:58:42,950 --> 02:58:41,760
nonsense and immature and not very deep

5080
02:58:46,389 --> 02:58:42,960
and vice versa

5081
02:58:47,110 --> 02:58:46,399
so so of of course i'll have said things

5082
02:58:51,190 --> 02:58:47,120
that that

5083
02:58:52,550 --> 02:58:51,200
deepak thinks are spiritually stupid

5084
02:58:54,630 --> 02:58:52,560
and then he says things that you know on

5085
02:58:56,550 --> 02:58:54,640
quantum mechanics and so forth that that

5086
02:58:57,990 --> 02:58:56,560
you know most scientists would say

5087
02:58:59,349 --> 02:58:58,000
that's not what a

5088
02:59:01,590 --> 02:58:59,359
you know a really trained scientist

5089
02:59:04,950 --> 02:59:01,600
would say

5090
02:59:05,429 --> 02:59:04,960
fine but if we want to have a dialogue

5091
02:59:10,150 --> 02:59:05,439
that's

5092
02:59:13,590 --> 02:59:10,160
really productive we have to

5093
02:59:15,990 --> 02:59:13,600
cut each other some slack we have to

5094
02:59:17,990 --> 02:59:16,000
listen past the barriers and understand

5095
02:59:19,510 --> 02:59:18,000
you know it took me many many years to

5096
02:59:20,630 --> 02:59:19,520
understand what i know about cognitive

5097
02:59:22,309 --> 02:59:20,640
science

5098
02:59:23,510 --> 02:59:22,319
i can't expect someone to just pop into

5099
02:59:24,790 --> 02:59:23,520
my field and sound like they know what

5100
02:59:26,309 --> 02:59:24,800
they're talking about

5101
02:59:28,070 --> 02:59:26,319
if i'm not willing to cut them some

5102
02:59:28,630 --> 02:59:28,080
slack we'll never get a dialogue so for

5103
02:59:31,349 --> 02:59:28,640
me

5104
02:59:33,429 --> 02:59:31,359
that that's so i i and i learned from my

5105
02:59:35,030 --> 02:59:33,439
dialogue with deepak he he learns

5106
02:59:36,630 --> 02:59:35,040
in his dialogue with me and we've

5107
02:59:38,469 --> 02:59:36,640
learned to have this respect

5108
02:59:39,750 --> 02:59:38,479
of what each other knows and trying to

5109
02:59:43,269 --> 02:59:39,760
learn from the other so

5110
02:59:46,389 --> 02:59:43,279
so that's what i hope um we we mirror

5111
02:59:48,790 --> 02:59:46,399
um and of course it's my job to

5112
02:59:50,309 --> 02:59:48,800
gently correct him when i see things

5113
02:59:52,309 --> 02:59:50,319
that he says that might be wrong and

5114
02:59:53,990 --> 02:59:52,319
it's his job to gently correct me when i

5115
02:59:57,590 --> 02:59:54,000
misstate his tradition for example

5116
02:59:58,950 --> 02:59:57,600
so that's that's perfectly fine on jesus

5117
03:00:03,510 --> 02:59:58,960
i don't know what to say about

5118
03:00:05,670 --> 03:00:03,520
um i mean i was raised uh

5119
03:00:07,030 --> 03:00:05,680
my father was a fundamentalist christian

5120
03:00:08,870 --> 03:00:07,040
minister and so i

5121
03:00:11,990 --> 03:00:08,880
i've read the bible cover to cover more

5122
03:00:17,510 --> 03:00:14,870
i know what the standard interpretation

5123
03:00:20,150 --> 03:00:17,520
of the bible is

5124
03:00:21,670 --> 03:00:20,160
among protestant fundamentals christians

5125
03:00:24,230 --> 03:00:21,680
what jesus meant when he said i am the

5126
03:00:28,550 --> 03:00:24,240
way the truth and life

5127
03:00:32,150 --> 03:00:28,560
um i don't know i i'll just say

5128
03:00:39,590 --> 03:00:36,790
i i will say that

5129
03:00:42,230 --> 03:00:39,600
i think that there are many beautiful

5130
03:00:44,790 --> 03:00:42,240
insights in the bible

5131
03:00:46,469 --> 03:00:44,800
and and i think there's also nonsense

5132
03:00:48,550 --> 03:00:46,479
and i think that

5133
03:00:50,469 --> 03:00:48,560
just like in scientific theories there

5134
03:00:52,070 --> 03:00:50,479
are many beautiful insights

5135
03:00:54,309 --> 03:00:52,080
and then there are places where we know

5136
03:00:55,429 --> 03:00:54,319
we're absolutely wrong and and my

5137
03:00:57,110 --> 03:00:55,439
attitude

5138
03:00:59,110 --> 03:00:57,120
in for any scripture and for any

5139
03:01:02,469 --> 03:00:59,120
scientific theory is the same

5140
03:01:06,230 --> 03:01:02,479
let's treasure the insights

5141
03:01:08,870 --> 03:01:06,240
and let's recognize humbly

5142
03:01:09,670 --> 03:01:08,880
that we can be wrong any religious

5143
03:01:12,469 --> 03:01:09,680
tradition

5144
03:01:15,269 --> 03:01:12,479
any scripture any scientific theory if

5145
03:01:18,469 --> 03:01:15,279
we're not willing

5146
03:01:20,550 --> 03:01:18,479
to be wrong

5147
03:01:22,150 --> 03:01:20,560
to open up to the possibility that

5148
03:01:23,190 --> 03:01:22,160
something we deeply believe could be

5149
03:01:25,429 --> 03:01:23,200
deeply wrong

5150
03:01:26,469 --> 03:01:25,439
we can't grow that's the place where we

5151
03:01:31,830 --> 03:01:26,479
stop growing

5152
03:01:34,950 --> 03:01:31,840
so it's it's a matter of humility

5153
03:01:37,349 --> 03:01:34,960
both to listen to to other traditions

5154
03:01:40,150 --> 03:01:37,359
other points of view to be open that

5155
03:01:41,750 --> 03:01:40,160
they may have insights i've never had

5156
03:01:43,990 --> 03:01:41,760
i may have insights that they've never

5157
03:01:45,830 --> 03:01:44,000
had i may have nonsense

5158
03:01:47,269 --> 03:01:45,840
that they can point out they may have

5159
03:01:48,950 --> 03:01:47,279
nonsense that i can point out

5160
03:01:50,070 --> 03:01:48,960
if we can do it in this respectful way

5161
03:01:51,349 --> 03:01:50,080
again like the kind of thing i'm trying

5162
03:01:52,550 --> 03:01:51,359
to do with with depop

5163
03:01:53,910 --> 03:01:52,560
i i don't want to have them say

5164
03:01:54,710 --> 03:01:53,920
something wrong about quantum mechanics

5165
03:01:56,469 --> 03:01:54,720
and go

5166
03:01:57,750 --> 03:01:56,479
ugh you said that about quantum

5167
03:01:59,429 --> 03:01:57,760
mechanics forget it i'm not going to

5168
03:02:00,710 --> 03:01:59,439
talk to you anymore you got that wrong

5169
03:02:03,190 --> 03:02:00,720
that's that's not the way to do it

5170
03:02:05,349 --> 03:02:03,200
that's it it's it's to have

5171
03:02:06,630 --> 03:02:05,359
a respectful dialogue if others are

5172
03:02:09,429 --> 03:02:06,640
willing to

5173
03:02:10,389 --> 03:02:09,439
humbly also put out their ideas and

5174
03:02:11,830 --> 03:02:10,399
listen

5175
03:02:13,590 --> 03:02:11,840
that i think is the heart of true

5176
03:02:14,469 --> 03:02:13,600
religion when we talk about loving each

5177
03:02:16,150 --> 03:02:14,479
other

5178
03:02:17,990 --> 03:02:16,160
what deeper love can you have than to

5179
03:02:20,070 --> 03:02:18,000
respectfully

5180
03:02:21,429 --> 03:02:20,080
and carefully listen to the thoughts and

5181
03:02:23,510 --> 03:02:21,439
opinions of others

5182
03:02:24,469 --> 03:02:23,520
and be willing to entertain the

5183
03:02:26,950 --> 03:02:24,479
possibility

5184
03:02:28,389 --> 03:02:26,960
that they may be right in some places

5185
03:02:31,590 --> 03:02:28,399
and you may be wrong

5186
03:02:32,630 --> 03:02:31,600
that's a deep respectful and humble kind

5187
03:02:33,910 --> 03:02:32,640
of interaction

5188
03:02:37,349 --> 03:02:33,920
and that's how we will learn and that's

5189
03:02:41,750 --> 03:02:39,830
thank you don where can the audience

5190
03:02:44,870 --> 03:02:41,760
find out more about you

5191
03:02:48,230 --> 03:02:44,880
um i if you google

5192
03:02:49,830 --> 03:02:48,240
donald hoffman hof fman my um home page

5193
03:02:51,750 --> 03:02:49,840
at university california comes up and

5194
03:02:53,590 --> 03:02:51,760
i've got links to my papers and

5195
03:02:55,030 --> 03:02:53,600
i have a book um the case against

5196
03:02:56,630 --> 03:02:55,040
reality

5197
03:02:59,750 --> 03:02:56,640
published by norton so the case against

5198
03:03:01,670 --> 03:02:59,760
reality is a great place to get